00:00:00: MATTHIJS: Welcome to Industry Insights. This is the EFM podcast and today we have a special edition recorded in Cannes at the hotel which for many years hosted Beki Probst, who we all know as the founder and long-time director and president of the European Film Market. And let me briefly introduce myself before we continue. My name is Matthijs Wouter Knol. I'm happy to call myself the successor of Beki for a couple of years at the European Film Market and I'm currently the director of the European Film Academy. So Beki, welcome at the special edition of the podcast. Have you done podcasts before?

00:00:42: BEKI: Never.

00:00:45: MATTHIJS: Well, it's never too late to start with new things. We're in the middle of the festival and the Marché, but we're not only just going to talk about that, we also felt it would be a great occasion to share and maybe talk with you about a couple of things that are linked to this world in which we all work and live, which is called the film industry in Europe and outside of it. And of course that film industry would not be the way it was without, I think, also the markets that we have and also your work in setting up one of the most important markets, which is the one in Berlin, the European Film Market. But maybe before we do that, we can go back a little bit because I happen to know that also your entry into the industry has a lot to do with Cannes as well. I think as a young girl you came to Cannes.

00:01:36: BEKI: As a journalist.

00:01:37: MATTHIJS: As a journalist. Was there a marché back then?

00:01:40: BEKI No.

00:01:42: MATTHIJS: So how was it?

00:01:43: BEK: I No, no. There was the festival. You know, my job then was as a journalist, I didn't come as a film critic. I came here to interview big names like Sophia Loren, Gina Lollobrigida, Elizabeth Taylor, who I had to help with her bra in the toilet of the old ballet because her bra broke. And she was looking for something to attach it.

00:02:14: MATTHIJS: So that gave you, I would say, like a special applause doing an interview with her afterwards?

00:02:20: BEKI: Of course. So that was my role. So, of course, also I have to tell you, it was another story because all those names didn't have five bodyguards around them. They were just simple people going to the toilet like I did and then facing, oh, my bra broke. What do I do? You know?

00:02:44: MATTHIJS: Did you interview them in their hotel rooms or were there press conferences or press areas?

00:02:49: BEKI: No, no, no, no. It was in hotel rooms.

00:02:52: MATTHIJS: And did you back then, because I just imagine, I think we all can remember the first times we were in Cannes and how lost we might have felt there among all those stars, the big hotels, of course, the impressive boulevard. Which language did you speak with them? Were you very confident in your English and doing interviews or was it with translators?

00:03:13: BEKI: No, no translators. It was also not like a press junket where today an interviewer gets three minutes a question. No, it was a one to one sitting together in a very civilized way, having a coffee or something to drink, an easy-going one-hour interview.

00:03:38: MATTHIJS: Yeah, fantastic. I mean, many people would be jealous today, I would say, thinking about having that exclusivity. Do you remember any of the interviews where you felt “this is an industry I would love to be a part of”?

00:03:52: BEKI: You know what, Matthijs, at that time I was so young, I was not thinking how my life will go on because I was a journalist and at the same time I was studying law. I was at the university. So my thing was, I will become a lawyer. The thing I was thinking then, it was also my family’s thought that, oh, how lucky she is to be able to enter that world, you know.

00:04:30: MATTHIJS: And when you talk about your family, we're talking about you being based in Istanbul in Turkey where you were born. So like the trip to Cannes was quite a big foreign trip. Was it the first time you went to Europe or have you been there many more times before?

00:04:49: BEKI: No, before that trip to Cannes, I was still a student before the Matura at Notre Dame de Sion and I was among the hostesses that went on the boat to do the whole European coast. That was my first time I really went to Europe.

00:05:14: MATTHIJS: And was it Europe or was it also outside of Europe?

00:05:16: BEKI: The first one was of Europe. The second one is the fairytale one, 63 days going to North Africa, Cuba, coming up the whole coast, New York. We're in New York. They asked, did you really come with that boat? Because that boat looked like a fishing boat. Well, we were 12 ladies, all students from different schools. There were people from the government and all that.

00:05:50: MATTHIJS: But it also means that actually from that moment onwards, I just imagine going on a huge trip like that, having responsibility to promote Turkey and everything, it made you aware, first of all, of the international world outside of your hometown. The fact that you have to connect to people in a different way. You cannot just be, you know, the way you do it is the way it should be. You have to adapt and use your languages. But also the fact that there is, convincing people, meeting new people and it's been a part of what you've been doing from a young age onwards basically. So that probably was very helpful.

00:06:31: BEKI: A good school.

00:06:32: MATTHIJS: Yeah, a good school. Maybe a jump because knowing that after your, I think not so long journalist career, let's call it like this, and also not a very long lawyer career, I think. You studied law, but you started working in Switzerland and have been actually until recently very much involved in running cinemas, showing films, speaking films, programming. So that is something that actually from then onwards made you, on a very different level, part of the cinema industry.

00:07:08: BEKI: You know, Matthijs, when I look back at all that, I really think that I had the luck to be in the right place at the right moment. Because I remember very well meeting David Streiff, who was then running Locarno at the airport in Zurich going to Berlin, because I was already a delegate for Berlin for Moritz de Hadeln. And David asked me, listen, we have a program in Locarno. The professionals are not coming. And we would like to have the Swiss professionals, the exhibitors, the distributors. Why don't you help me? And then I said yes and came on the idea of organizing, in Locarno, a trade show to bring exhibitors and distributors together for three days where they can screen films, they can discuss about promotion and all that. And that trade show is still going on. That's why I think I was there and it was the right moment. And probably this trade show of Locarno gave Moritz de Hadeln the idea to hire me for the market in Berlin. And for the market in Berlin, for me, it was really a huge new thing. And I was not sure I would accept this offer because I knew the people in Switzerland, but I didn't know the international people. It was a jump in the water. I remember when I started, the team was three people. That's it.

00:09:12: MATTHIJS: Yeah, so three women who basically were the start of that. And you just said you were not sure and confident because it was quite a big step from going from the trade show in Locarno to Berlin. Were there any people that gave you the confidence to do it? That said, “listen, don't worry, we'll back you up”? Or do you remember anybody who sort of said like, you can do this?

00:09:36: BEKI: I have to tell you, my ex-husband, Roland, with whom I've been working all my life to build the cinemas, he said, “Beki, go, you can do it”. But really, arriving to Berlin was not easy. And something really stayed with me that today, whoever is going to run the market will find it maybe ridiculous because you have everything on computers and all that. We had nothing. I remember in the Cinecenter staying very late at night and going through the old correspondence. You know what went on? Who wrote? Who wanted this?

00:10:29: MATTHIJS: When you say correspondence, do we need to think about people sending faxes?

00:10:35: BEKI: Telexes. Not fax even yet. Telexes.

00:10:42: MATTHIJS: I don't even know the order, so I realize.

00:10:44: BEKI: Do we go to the middle age now?

00:10:48: MATTHIJS: Like smoke signals.

00:10:51: BEKI: Telexes, you know, and the correspondence was mostly of institutions. I remember one big presence in Berlin when I arrived and Moritz told me to take very good care of them. It was the Scandinavians because the Scandinavians, five countries, they had the biggest stand. The Match Factory guy with whom I was sitting opening night dinner said, “Beki gave me the chance of my life”. I didn't even remember that story. He came to me and he said, “look, I'm starting new. I will need a little space in that Cinecenter”. And he told me something I didn't know. His colleagues told him, “look, forget it. I mean, why should she give you a place?” And apparently I gave it.

00:11:52: MATTHIJS: Apparently he was successful. Yeah. And look at that now. I mean, you just gave the example of Michael Weber and The Match Factory. There must be plenty of people who actually started their career and came to you and asked you for maybe support, whether it was a badge, a stand, or a few square meters and so on. Do you feel, I mean, talking about that and starting out, you just shared your own story about being a young journalist in Cannes. The industry every year welcomes new people. And this is an industry in which I think people of all ages are working, obviously, but also a lot of people try to enter the industry still, whether they go to the market or not. I mean, when we walk the streets of Cannes, I see a lot of people every year that I feel like it's their first time. They don't know where they have to go to. The industry has changed tremendously and I might not always find people with a kind heart like yours that says, listen, I maybe can help, but clean your stand if you leave early. Is there anything you would give as advice these days? What did not change? What do you think is important?

00:12:57: BEKI: It's good that you are saying that point because, you know, I have been here with Tricia two, three times together. The new director of Berlin is exactly saying what you are saying. She's saying that once you are established, like she is now as a director, you have to see that there are young people coming for the continuity. You are starting something, yes, and then see that there is a continuity and there are people who will assure the future.

00:13:41: MATTHIJS: No, it's true. I mean, I think being aware that we need young people in the industry for things to go on. But would you say, when you look back at, for example, the years you just mentioned doing the press or the first years in the Cinecenter at the European Film Market, was it already called “European Film Market” back then or was it still the “Filmmesse”?

00:14:05: BEKI: No, no, no. It was called the “Filmmesse”. But when I came before I signed the contract, Moritz said, “you have to come with two, three new ideas”. OK, one idea was in a way, because, I am not a German speaking person, I learned German. “Filmmesse” extremely disturbed me because “Messe” is for carpets, for furniture, for plants, for whatever. So I wanted something else. And talking with a very good dear friend of mine about that, we said, “actually we have the American Film Market there. We are in Europe. Why don't we give it the “European Film Market”?” And over the years, I have been fighting that they keep the name till finally they took the right steps to make it the patent.

00:15:18: MATTHIJS: Yeah, yeah, nobody can use the name.

00:15:20: BEKI: The second idea was almost the origin of the guest of honour. The second idea was that in the market, in the Kurfürstendamm, you had a cinema called Astor. In the Astor, to make one day, let's say French Day, where you will give the priority and the programming to productions of those countries. Like a country of honour that one day.

00:16:01: MATTHIJS: So to focus on that country that day.

00:16:04: BEKI: Exactly. So that idea, I had to drop it, because sometimes you realize after a year it doesn't work. And it's better to drop them.

00:16:15: MATTHIJS: And why didn't it work?

00:16:17: BEKI: That didn't work so much. It didn't attract the people. Maybe also you have to think about the time. When you do a French Day, you have more chance than when you do a day from Estonia. Don't forget that in that Film Market at that time, you had a lot of the institutions coming from countries behind...

00:16:51: MATTHIJS: The Iron Curtain?

00:16:52: BEKI: That Exactly.

00:16:53: MATTHIJS: To put it a bit in a time context here, you started in '88. So it was still before the fall of the Berlin Wall and even the years afterwards, the reality was quite different, I would say, in Western and Eastern.

00:17:05: BEKI: One year in a divided Berlin and the second year already, where we said, yeah...

00:17:15: MATTHIJS: You must have been in the middle of preparing the European film market at the end of the year when the wall fell in November.

00:17:23: BEKI: We were in the middle of preparations. I was in Berlin the 9th of November and I went to my hotel room in the evening. We had a normal day. And then I get a phone call from Manfred Salzgeber who tells me, "Beki, open your television. The wall is coming down." So I opened the television. Manfred comes to get me, we go to Brandenburger Tor, and we see what's going on. The next morning, I am going out and I say, "What happened?" Because the whole Kurfürstendamm was full of Trabants parked and hundreds of people in the same blue jeans. They all wear the same blue jeans. So that was our first day.

00:18:26: MATTHIJS: Wow. And the office back then was also still at the Zoopalast, in the Bikini House and so on, right? So it was all the same area that was flooded with people from East Berlin.

00:18:36: BEKI: Flooded. And I will always remember, everywhere you went afterwards, people telling you, "Oh, you know, I met those people on the street and I tell them they can stay over in my..." There was a big welcome atmosphere for the people coming over. That was quite an experience. And of course, Moritz decided the festival will take place on both sides.

00:19:09: MATTHIJS: So that year, the festival, or the following year, actually, a few months later, the festival took place also in East Berlin.

00:19:15: BEKI: Both sides, with your accreditation, you could go over, but you had to be back before 12 and from the same way you went in. If you went in there, you had to come back at the same place.

00:19:30: MATTHIJS: We just talked about young people entering the industry, your own experiences as well, but maybe because you mentioned a few women, I think we can say that you were also one of the first and few women having quite a, I would say, gatekeeper position within the industry. You said already that you helped people entering the industry, but I also know and I think, and I've heard this from many people as well, that when it comes to women, women of all ages actually, you've been quite an advocate of helping them and making sure that there's a network of women in the industry as well. Is this something that you've done automatically or is it also based on your own experiences that it's sometimes not as easy?

00:20:16: BEKI: You know, I always had many women, and Manu is one of them, and sometimes people were even saying, "Are you only hiring women?" No, it was not hiring women, it was people that we saw would fit into the team. We also had men, and when we started, we were fabricating badges from hand. Look, Matthijs, when I arrived, that was…

00:20:49: MATTHIJS: There was a lot of handicraft involved.

00:20:52: BEKI: Yeah, and it was like, you do it with what you can find there. But I think my approach was that this had to be run like a business, like a movie theatre that I was running in Switzerland. That means I need money. I need to cash people. And people were not against it, because if you give a service, it's normal that you pay for it. We need some money to grow, to add to our services.

00:21:41: MATTHIJS: Beki, we're now in 2024, the market has evolved a lot, and I think in many ways it's hard to imagine how things were in the 80s, but even before, when the Marché already existed. It feels like the market is very much in turmoil, and there's a lot of insecurity around how things will be actually already in a year from now, in five years from now, in ten years from now. I know that you don't have a crystal ball with you, but what is your feeling, also maybe a bit based on the decades that you've seen a lot of change? I know you kind of predict the future, but what is your feeling? In which direction is the market moving? What do you expect? What do you feel might be coming?

00:22:24: BEKI: The changes are obvious, because remember when the video came up, everyone said cinema is now dead, and cinema was not dead, and video died, but now we have another phenomenon here. The series, are people watching just series or still going to the cinemas? COVID, economic problems.

00:22:51: MATTHIJS: Artificial intelligence, AI.

00:22:53: BEKI: Exactly, artificial intelligence, right? But I don't have a crystal ball, but I believe in one thing, Matthijs, I believe, just to give you an example, when Video and all that came up, and people were more and more communicating with sending links, you don't need... I remember a French woman came to Berlin with a little suitcase. And she said... Already Dieter [Kosslick] was in place. I mean, Dieter came in year 2001. We had a meeting with her, and her aim was to announce us, “it's the last market you are going to do. It's the death of the market.” That's the future in that little suitcase. She opens the suitcase...

00:23:59: MATTHIJS: Now I'm very curious, what came out?

00:24:01: BEKI: Like a magician, she opens the suitcase. She said, “you see here, you can see the trailer, here you can see the film, I can do that with that little machine.” Dieter and me, we looked at each other and we said, “is she crazy or are we going crazy?” So we said to her, “you know what, close that little suitcase and we'll see what happens next year.” So next year, we were still there, but she was gone. She never came back. And the same phenomenon that year, I remember very well, happened in Cannes. And now all I can say after the little experience I had over the years is human relations can't be replaced by anything else. I don't want to say that it's going to stay the same. Maybe the stands will take another form. Maybe the people will come just three days instead of a whole week. Things will change because there are changes all over the world. But one thing will remain: We still need to look at each other in our eyes and...

00:25:43: MATTHIJS: ... speak and agree and trust each other and make decisions. So you think, in that sense, that also the new and sometimes threatening people are afraid of what's coming. Is it replacing this? Is it replacing that? Do we have to invest here? Do we have to invest there? In the end, it's all developments that we humans will deal with.

00:26:05: BEKI: Exactly. When humans will disappear and you'll have only avatars, I can't tell you what will happen.

00:26:12: MATTHIJS: That's a different situation.

00:26:16: BEKI: I don't know how avatars will deal with each other. Human beings will deal like human beings.

00:26:23: MATTHIJS: It’s just astonishing that in those decades that you've been, because you've been for 30 years at European Film Market or a little bit longer even, all the changes, of course, the big changes as well from the Cinecenter to Potsdamer Platz and von Potsdamer Platz to the Martin Gropius Bau and now the Gropius Bau. So this whole increase in scale, do you feel that the beginning, the few stands in the Cinecenter, do you feel that the core of the market did change for you or the expansion, the larger size and so on, did that change something for the market for you or not so much?

00:27:07: BEKI: When we were at the Cinecenter and we were a few stands there and then, there was a big reticence from the people. They loved that Cinecenter. It was like a cocoon. They felt very comfortable.

00:27:31: MATTHIJS: Like a living room.

00:27:32: BEKI: Yeah. People were smoking all over the place.

00:27:36: MATTHIJS: Including you.

00:27:38: BEKI: Including me.

00:27:39: MATTHIJS: I have the feeling, Beki, that we could actually talk for months about all of this.

00:27:44: BEKI: For years.

00:27:45: MATTHIJS: For years, yeah. We'll plead with EFM if we can do at least 30 other episodes that are special. But I also know we were just talking about the smoke in the Cinecenter and you even smoking. I remember, I know you're not smoking anymore, but I know that you still leave parties saying that you're going to get some cigarettes.

00:28:04: BEKI: Exactly.

00:28:05: MATTHIJS: So maybe let's do that. Let's get some cigarettes and we'll be back soon. Beki, thank you so much.

00:28:13: BEKI: Thank you, Matthijs.

00:28:19: MATTHIJS: This was another special episode of Industry Insights, the EFM Podcast, and this time a live recording in Cannes with Beki Probst. My name is Matthijs Wouter Knol and EFM's year-round podcast is produced in cooperation with the Goethe-Institut and co-funded by Creative Europe MEDIA. Thank you for listening and stay tuned.