00:00:02: Hello and welcome to Industry Insights, the EFM podcast presented by The European Film Markets of Berlinale.

00:00:10: My name is Alex Stoltzer.

00:00:11: look after audience strategy at Ushiyu where we build campaign platforms for distributors worldwide.

00:00:18: I'm also a host of two other podcasts – The Future Of Film And The Marketing & Distribution Podcasts.

00:00:27: This podcast shines a light on highly topical trend-setting industry issues.

00:00:33: It's designed as a compass for the film year ahead, helping professionals navigate the fast changing creative

00:00:39: landscape.

00:00:40: Industry Insights is a year round podcast cofunded by Creative Europe Media.

00:00:48: Over the past eighteen months at RSU we've been working on research project called Resilient Film Marketing to capture best practice and share new insights solutions from distributors to a very fast-changing film distribution landscape.

00:01:05: We've just released the result and this is The RFM Playbook, a practical guide for distributors which available free now at rfm.usheu.com And I'm delighted to be joined today by one of the report's contributors, Jen Davis is co-founder of Connick who releases films in the UK and was one of thirty distributors that took part in discussions which shaped The Report.

00:01:40: Jen welcome!

00:01:42: Thank you thanks.

00:01:42: it's great to see here

00:01:44: Great to see again.

00:01:45: well let us dive into this.

00:01:47: tell me a bit about connick And the kind of films you release and about your operation.

00:01:53: Great, well we are a UK Ireland film distributor based out of Glasgow in Scotland... ...and we release eight to ten films a year with a focus on great films, visionary directors strong stories.. ..and look for films that're something special.

00:02:10: We were formed in twenty-twenty two and have just celebrated our fourth birthday So we're a relative newcomer to the field, but it's going well.

00:02:22: Amazing!

00:02:25: And you took part in this research that I think is involved.

00:02:28: from my first session?

00:02:29: We roped you in...

00:02:30: Yeah absolutely

00:02:32: Tell me why you wanted to get involved.

00:02:37: Well um i knew you and had obviously worked with you and some of the team at Oshiyu.

00:02:45: I liked the idea of this project.

00:03:02: How do we all come together to discuss the tools and systems, and methodologies that we use?

00:03:22: To really connect and engage audiences with films that were released.

00:03:26: And... The way it was structured as a completely open collaborative Chatham House rules so everything could be said openly and freely without anything necessarily being identified meant that We Could Come Together Discuss the strategies and try learn from each other.

00:03:45: So, it felt like a good thing to be part of.

00:03:47: Amazing!

00:03:48: Yeah well that's definitely what we were aiming for and yeah... It was really great sitting on the discussions here because she'd likely say every film release is completely different in so many ways.

00:04:02: but then there are these shared kind of learnings which can bring together and benefit from Collectively.

00:04:10: So I think yeah, like you say that was the point is trying to find those commonalities try and find where there's a bit more leverage.

00:04:17: But what Jen tell us?

00:04:18: You know let be upfront.

00:04:20: What Is The Hardest Part Of Releasing A Film in Buk right now?

00:04:26: okay i mean it's

00:04:29: Just one.

00:04:30: Okay,

00:04:32: I Mean It's I Think The Key Challenge probably around dating, finding the right release date for the film in what is not only a congested film-release landscape.

00:04:49: I mean there's eight to nine hundred films a year being released in the UK but also a sort of congested cultural landscape.

00:04:57: whereas the world is changing people are consuming things in many different ways and actually get go to the cinema, watch some independent film that is maybe from somebody and not a known director or something... A documentary about something less well-known.

00:05:15: And how do you get the date right?

00:05:19: So that you've got enough space with exhibition for The Footprint To Be Large Enough For The Campaign To Land Correctly For The Film That You Are Releasing As A Distributor To be one people are choosing to see on that weekend or over those coming weeks?

00:05:35: It's a huge ask, I think.

00:05:37: Obviously the playbook provides solutions and suggestions and best practice but this is the idea of persuading people to leave their couch not just any time.

00:05:49: like you know within the next month or this week sometime it's like a specific time You have to get them out there.

00:05:56: um...to go see something.

00:05:58: so its big task

00:06:00: It is, and in the UK so much hinges on that opening weekend.

00:06:05: And getting enough of that box office for those Monday holdovers to come in... ...for the film to have those legs to continue running in cinemas.

00:06:14: So much of a campaign is geared towards that….

00:06:18: …and then it's a sink or swim scenario you know?

00:06:22: Which is unfortunate isn't it?

00:06:23: because sometimes films take a little while.. ..to get going into build up word-of mouth.

00:06:29: Yep, that's true.

00:06:31: And then sometimes though it works incredibly well the date... It just works!

00:06:37: The space is available and the film is right for time you know?

00:06:41: ...and it really connects.. That's great.

00:06:45: Yeah thats when all comes together.

00:06:49: One of things we pull out in a report Is this gap where I came up with calling it A Playbook because it's practical, has got sixteen plays.

00:06:59: It's got interactive tools.

00:07:03: but one of the things that we pull out is that intention is the gap and what I mean is like distributors... And we saw this in roundtables with discussions.

00:07:13: Distributors are really good at getting films noticed cutting through these sort of you know attention deprived.

00:07:25: I don't know if that's the right way of putting it.

00:07:26: Everyone is bombarded with so much stuff, and to cut through that is monumental.

00:07:31: but distributors are really creative at doing that and they can get about attention.

00:07:35: But the gap is... That attention moving into a ticket sale And sometimes its really unclear why that happens or what doesn't happen.

00:07:45: Sometimes one of the distributors in their report said we've got loads views, we got a massive reach but then it just empty screens.

00:07:55: And does that resonate with you?

00:07:57: Do you agree with

00:07:58: that?".

00:07:58: Yeah

00:07:59: I mean... It is about the groundswell of engagement and the actual connection.

00:08:08: And then how does that convert?

00:08:10: I think there's actually a sort of tipping point where it becomes, though word-of mouth is kicking in on top all those numbers views trailer view site traffic things because its quite easy in some ways to get a bit of both on and offline buzz going if you get the right partnerships, but it's when you need people telling their friends or neighbours that you must see this.

00:08:37: And we've had films which have hugely worked very, very well theatrically because the communal experience of watching that with other people and coming together has become a kind of phenomenon.

00:08:50: We released a film called Everybody to Kenmere Street which was about protests that happened in Glasgow where two men were detained at home office.

00:08:59: Don Raid immigration van And the neighborhood came out surrounded the van and stopped them from being deported.

00:09:07: It became this day-long peaceful protest stayed peaceful until the men were finally released at the end.

00:09:14: And this documentary has been put together from footage, from The Day as well some reenactments and it's an incredible documentary which is partly why the quality of the film really matters in terms how people start to get that momentum going.

00:09:27: but... ...the experience of people watching that together into cinema became something we're talking about because I guess this one are films where had so much first-hand experience, because it became... So much of a film that people were watching and coming out to see across Glasgow in cinemas.

00:09:48: That I was hearing people talking about on the train you know?

00:09:51: And how do you get this level Of engagement..and some can be online but actually we need To go into cinema as that's The place for watch the film.

00:10:04: Yeah exactly!

00:10:05: It does feel like Every film needs to be an event now in some shape or form, To make it cinema worthy.

00:10:12: In the playbook we talk about that but It does need a compelling reason for people to leave their house right and That's can because its massive VFX spectacle.

00:10:25: But there are other ways as well.

00:10:28: Is this something you're always thinking of through a campaign?

00:10:31: Or even when acquisitions like how Can We Make This a must leave, leave the couch for.

00:10:38: Yeah I mean i think we've had some success with working with the kinds of films that lend themselves to being sort-of kind of almost eventized by the cinemas in The Way That They're Released.

00:10:52: We Had A Lot Of Success A Couple Years ago With A Film Called Holy Cow Which Is A Debut Feature From A French Filmmaker.

00:11:01: It Was In Cannes XXIV And we put on influencer screenings with cheese and wine, but we encouraged cinemas to do the same.

00:11:10: We worked with Compte –the cheese that The Young Man in the film is making–and their brand agency in the UK on some joined-up marketing.

00:11:19: so we were working with cheese mungers, with dairies... So then cinemas were putting on wine & cheese nights with the film.

00:11:28: Because of the success of that, we've recently picked up Isabel a Brazilian film about natural wine in the hope that we can look at some of those techniques of wider engagement.

00:11:40: So it's not just the independent art house film fans who want to see international global cinema.

00:11:47: It is also people interested into what they are interested with and how we engage audiences.

00:11:55: get people talking.

00:11:56: Yeah, it makes

00:11:59: make sense.

00:12:00: I was delicious!

00:12:03: I'd love to join one of those screenings.

00:12:06: So tell me when you're going through a release like that at what point do You know if all this hard work?

00:12:14: All these initiatives are actually coming together?

00:12:18: how late on in the process?

00:12:20: Do get back information.

00:12:23: There's sort of glimmers as you can see speaking to the publicist, if it switched from them batting and trying to navigate the quantity of requests for interviews rather than like the endless pitching.

00:12:40: And then securing smaller outlets.

00:12:44: there's been also when increase, there's a sort of them.

00:12:51: the cinema bookings follow or they're coming in.

00:12:54: so to thick and fast because it's becoming.

00:12:57: Sort of It's In The Awareness.

00:12:59: And some of these films are ones that already have known.

00:13:06: They've either been released internationally perhaps then we know That they got this buzz on.

00:13:09: the director is known for Films that do well?

00:13:18: of the picture that we start to suddenly think, okay let's now look at how do we potentially increase the P&A budget to spend slightly more on advertising because things are tracking well.

00:13:28: But it is also about how you recognise which might be slightly false signals and taking that caution?

00:13:36: I think this is something keeping the flexibility, so that you can respond to things that are connecting.

00:13:46: And sometimes they're not necessarily... ...the things that you think will and sometimes just one asset-one digital video thing.. ..can really connect.

00:13:55: then how do work with those two?

00:13:59: try get it right?

00:14:00: Lean into successes!

00:14:02: Yeah yeah exactly.

00:14:04: signals was one of the things we picked up In the playbook, we had a lot of discussion about signals in roundtables and some people.

00:14:11: We have disagreements around some of them with distributors.

00:14:15: I think one exhibitant reactions was one which springs to mind.

00:14:19: One distributor said yeah that's you know...we trust that.

00:14:23: And then another one is like We don't necessarily because it might just be giving us the screens Because they got a gap rather than They believe in the film and they think there's something there.

00:14:36: So we've got this signal inventory, you can look at all of different signals which are mapped And I think it is about trying to preserve that optionality.

00:14:48: You have flexibility in preserving as much as possible To change course or adapt or expand Or even pull back if needed.

00:15:02: The other part of that is before the release starts, we have this release planning tool which is like what are those signals you're looking for in these releases?

00:15:14: and if they come true.

00:15:17: What action will it take?

00:15:18: It takes away so fast pace distribution not only on to next release but every release moves quickly through from awareness ticket sale stage, so yeah having a bit of like framework

00:15:36: for it.

00:15:37: Yeah we have real structured framework that we look to but within that we do try and retain the flexibility to scale the campaign to get it right...to actually take the elements that we think are gonna work for that film.

00:15:49: And I find what i found interesting reading The Playbook is some.

00:15:54: these things feel almost like a provocation at the outset with actually what will we then subsequently do if this performs in a certain way?

00:16:05: Whereas, in many ways some of these ideas but not to cement those into our plan.

00:16:13: I think it'll enable greater flexibility when sort-of... In those throws that week before release you know When all the press is landing everything else going on What are we gonna add P&A or whatever, you know.

00:16:29: Yeah great.

00:16:31: so one of the things which came out there was one piece a research which was looking at for traffic coming into eight hundred websites that we ran over the course of year and we saw massive gap between traffic which came via an advert to those arrived directly.

00:16:54: And that really sort of showed a gap, I guess between people who were intentional.

00:17:01: That intention gap and those people who are more browsing or less committed?

00:17:09: How do you think about paid advertising at the moment where it fits into your... Are you seeing good results?

00:17:18: with it?

00:17:18: Well, we're certainly seeing very high site traffic.

00:17:23: And again I think the research is entirely correct in that paid advertising traffic is a much lower conversion rate than those who are actually googling to find out that film because they've already made that decision to try and see.

00:17:48: engage them a little when they get to that landing page.

00:17:51: But in a way, the digital advertising is so low cost per click compared other advertising and it does... It's considered one of ways people have heard about film through bits I've read from various places.

00:18:11: So i feel as though works well, and it's how do you just have that balance of trying to raise awareness through as many different ways as you can.

00:18:20: so the people are reminded about this film in different points.

00:18:24: In their journey around... Through The World!

00:18:27: ...in the weeks running up to that release.

00:18:32: And we work with a digital advertising guy for our paid campaigns.

00:18:37: He works with a lot of brands A lot other things He does things like, can do things sort of retargeting people that have already clicked or looked at it for a duration time.

00:18:49: So we're able to take some of those methods from other industries and try remind people what they think might be interested And then were also geotargeted into the cinemas where we are screening films.

00:19:02: We even go quite granular with actually naming the cinema You know?

00:19:08: It depends on how on the scale of the campaign, how wide we are.

00:19:12: How weird sort of tackle that.

00:19:14: and yeah just try to get it right.

00:19:18: because as you say the paid ad conversion rate is much lower?

00:19:22: Yeah absolutely but it sounds like you've got a lot of different levers in there too um...to get the word out.

00:19:33: And these days its never going be one ad that drives visit, it's multiple touch points across the campaign.

00:19:42: Yeah.

00:19:43: Tell us did you have any thoughts about the AI research in The Playbook?

00:19:47: Did that surprise you.

00:19:48: but just to explain we polled a panel of cinema goers and asked them how they make decisions on their film going... We talked what needs an event which is worth leaving the house for Twenty-five percent of them actually moving up to thirty five percent.

00:20:09: who said I'm not sure as well.

00:20:12: So they use AI assistance To ask questions about a film.

00:20:16: Is this is it's a good movie?

00:20:18: It's worth the night out, isn't?

00:20:20: could date movie these kind of question which you might Ask a friend human Aswell.

00:20:26: and so our observation was like oh this is significant his growing.

00:20:31: And What really important, of course is the AI's giving.

00:20:37: The answer that is correct or is in line with the campaign?

00:20:43: I wonder how...I haven't done it actually!

00:20:45: I was wondering what A.I would say about DIGA at a moment so that'd be quite interesting to see how that picking up.

00:20:54: but yeah does that resonate?

00:20:58: Yeah, I found it fascinating because i've noticed this myself when i've googled things really just looking for when they're actually showing at my local cinema and It is giving me this sort of information.

00:21:09: And then...I tried on a couple our upcoming films Actually.

00:21:14: In the kind way that somebody might ask That question.

00:21:19: One thing..and don't know whether or not it's Because we release are generally quite Good.

00:21:27: Not just in my opinion, but they're relatively well considered.

00:21:30: a lot of them have picked up festival awards their premier to A-list festivals etc.

00:21:34: But I asked it and its came back to me on the history of concrete which we've just acquired.

00:21:38: It said yes You should watch The History Of Concrete twenty twenty six if you enjoy eccentric witty and deeply human documentary filmmaking.

00:21:46: And i was like okay that seems overwhelmingly positive and pretty good?

00:21:49: Actually this is just Google.

00:21:50: how much does google really...I don't know How Much Is This Tracking Me and am I logged in as myself?

00:21:57: or, you know?

00:22:00: And then on American Doctor which...I didn't know how it was because It's about American doctors working in Gaza.

00:22:10: We've had some issues with the trailer being sort of unable to promote that on YouTube and things but i wondered whether how that would be positioned by the Google AI responses.

00:22:23: That's a really interesting one, yeah

00:22:25: But there was result came back and I just said is it good documentary?

00:22:31: We're releasing in November And i wonder when we've had these struggles because of subject matter How is Google responding to this?

00:22:42: And it came back with, yes American Doctor who has widely considered an excellent and essential documentary holding a hundred percent tomato meter score on Rotten Tomatoes.

00:22:49: An eighty six on Metacritic you know.

00:22:51: so its just felt like It was being quite positive So maybe quite optimistic that how we might respond people actually asking these questions I've done.

00:23:05: Our website is built on Squarespace and that has tools within it, they enable you to see how AI is searching.

00:23:13: And using the data that you're putting in your websites so we can look at our synopsis of things and make sure as the UK Ireland distributor those search results come up with a source for information.

00:23:28: We are mentioning things like awards.

00:23:31: when?

00:23:34: Yeah, exactly.

00:23:35: And that's the takeaway is become a source use structured data so these search assistants and bots can find information easily and come back to be user.

00:23:49: but it is encouraging in our sense I think because one of things which has always been you know frustrating or limiting about reviews for themselves, but people have different tastes and choices.

00:24:05: And so if someone can say well I really like this and that's a kind of film i'm looking for it gets the right information is more personalised It could be uh...a good thing.

00:24:16: Yeah..I guess it just depends on what shape the robots are.

00:24:23: you know?

00:24:24: What do they train on whereas who made them?

00:24:27: A

00:24:28: hundred percent.

00:24:29: Well yes So, you know I think the key thing is something to keep a close eye on and as people start using it more-and-more.

00:24:40: It's very interesting one because obviously AI there are these tools in ways that people use them particularly within search And then they're sort of conversations relative film making when we look at films to acquire.

00:24:57: We don't want that.

00:24:59: We want singular human visions to help us understand the world and then how we are distributing them through a layer of sort-of.

00:25:12: having to know, you know... Having to work with these tools in way where trying do something feels very long away from AI.

00:25:20: so it's an interesting time releasing films.

00:25:25: let see what next few years bring.

00:25:28: Yeah, well I think it's like you say.

00:25:29: It really um... yeah is great to be able to bring those stories and experiences out into places.

00:25:41: people can watch them.

00:25:43: so yeah i think we're coming to the end of our time.

00:25:48: Jen are you up for a really short quick fire

00:25:52: round?

00:25:53: Sure!

00:25:55: Go for it.

00:25:55: okay let's do it.

00:25:56: ask me anything.

00:25:59: Okay, trailer views or showtime clicks?

00:26:02: Ooh!

00:26:02: Showtime clicks.

00:26:04: Opening weekend or week three?

00:26:07: Opening weekend.

00:26:09: Instinct...or data?

00:26:11: Instinct.

00:26:13: Sorry

00:26:15: That's fine Signal you trust most.

00:26:18: I think it's Exhibitors reporting.

00:26:24: strong ticket sales

00:26:26: Paid or organic?

00:26:28: Organic

00:26:29: One thing you ban from distribution marketing.

00:26:33: Ooh Like plasticky standees.

00:26:42: Yeah, good shot.

00:26:44: one thing every distributor should do and most don't

00:26:48: Look at the data.

00:26:50: yeah

00:26:51: best campaign You've seen that wasn't yours.

00:26:57: Oh god, no.

00:26:58: I don't know.

00:27:00: Backrooms!

00:27:01: Yes...I

00:27:02: thought it was very smart.

00:27:08: the use of the liminal spaces The wallpaper.

00:27:11: There's a kind of coherence to that.

00:27:16: Obviously he had the YouTube following and going on but i though and really engaged, was just phenomenally done.

00:27:32: And it felt sort of globally coherent as well.

00:27:35: Amazing!

00:27:36: Cool.

00:27:37: Well look Jen we've run out time.

00:27:39: this has been great.

00:27:40: thank you so much for joining this conversation.

00:27:44: Thank You again contributing to the Resilient Film Marketing Playbook.

00:27:50: It's available now free at rfm.usiu.com.

00:27:57: This season of Industry Insights is co-funded by Creative Europe Media.

00:28:25: Goodbye,

00:28:27: thanks.