00:00:01: Welcome to Industry Insights, the EFM podcast presented by the European Film market of The Berlinale.

00:00:08: My name is AC Coppens and I am founder of The Catalysts Agency.

00:00:13: This podcast series shines a light on highly topical trend-setting industry issues.

00:00:19: It's designed as a compass for the film year

00:00:21: ahead

00:00:22: helping professionals navigate fast changing creative landscape.

00:00:26: Industry Insights is an year round podcast co-funded by Creative Europe Media.

00:00:33: Dive into a forward looking conversation on the future of global film marketing, as audiences shift data deepens and new platforms reshape how stories travel.

00:00:45: Marina Kosten, Adriana Trautman & Oliver Fegan show how disruption becomes opportunity with sharp insights and case studies.

00:00:55: The session highlights how experimental Test-driven marketing helps stories reach audiences more effectively.

00:01:03: The conversation was recorded during this year's EFM, so let's go!

00:01:09: Marketing that works.

00:01:11: Turning change into a new advantage, this is what we're going to talk about today and I'm very glad you have with me on stage running industry powerhouses who will be able go in an in-depth exploration of global film marketing... ...to explore together the latest trends approaches and strategies for successful content marketing.

00:01:33: We'll follow

00:01:34: up

00:01:35: at last year's session so we are not gonna do the same.

00:01:38: That's the good news, right?

00:01:40: We're going to go further.

00:01:41: And I'm very glad you have still with us a second time Marina Kossen, Senior Fellow at Central for the Digital Future at USC Annenberg and ex-twentieth Century Fox which is great to have her back together with Adriana Trautman.

00:01:56: And I don't know if you remember, but Adriana launched her company basically on stage here last year.

00:02:03: Before that she was head of outside home country program at Amazon and previously VP of marketing for Paramount.

00:02:10: so it's It's great to have them both again here with us.

00:02:15: And they were also, and these are still on the podcast.

00:02:19: The podcasts will be in the EFM platform for podcasting.

00:02:22: Then we had a new one from this sequel which is Oliver Fegan. It's good to refresh the series right?

00:02:29: He was co-founder and CEO of Usharu which is marketing technology company behind film & live entertainment businesses.

00:02:41: to improve their marketing efficiencies, improve convertions  They work with a hundred and fifty partners across thirty countries.

00:02:44: And they are scaling, right?

00:02:46: So it's great that you're working with Europe-leading film distributors!

00:02:50: It is great we have the European and US point of view here because as we know We can really learn together about new tactics... ...and this what we want.

00:02:59: I'm going to make two of your catch up Because today was an advanced session.

00:03:04: For those who were not here last year i am gonna make some summary.

00:03:08: First of all What you need to know from the twenty-twenty five insights.

00:03:11: First, audience definition is the primary creative decision.

00:03:17: marketing doesn't start with tools or spent but a precise understanding who it's the film for.

00:03:26: And then the clearer you are, the better.

00:03:29: I'm repeating what you said last year right?

00:03:31: I mean just make it...I am trying to accelerate this sorry!

00:03:34: Then international success follows

00:03:37: proven

00:03:38: local

00:03:38: resonance.

00:03:39: It means that stories travel best after they've been working culturally and emotionally in one market.

00:03:46: and then we can scale along the audience signals.

00:03:49: I'm glad to see that your saying yes so great.

00:03:52: So global appeal is not designed upfront.

00:03:56: Third, box office data is too late.

00:04:02: So it means you need to go into the early indicators trailer engagements comments completion rates of whatever question as we want to do qualitative audience reactions or something.

00:04:13: this Is what is allowing the marketers?

00:04:15: To adjust positioning before scaling.

00:04:19: Fourth, I'm nearly done.

00:04:20: There are only five points.

00:04:21: platforms win because they control the first party audience relationships and They have access to this deterministic data on real-time feedback.

00:04:32: So that's why?

00:04:33: And that's why you want these data especially the producers and distributors.

00:04:38: and finally marketing is not any longer a launch event.

00:04:44: It is the continuous process, I think this really nothing new but we need to say it again and again you need test, refine, adapt before release.

00:04:54: successful campaigns are the ones treating marketing as an extension of storytelling or actually even part of story telling to be honest right?

00:05:02: So i'm glad to start this conversation with updates about audience shifts because it always starts with an audience right?

00:05:11: So, how are these audience behaviors changing?

00:05:13: specifically the younger audiences and I would like to start with you Marina.

00:05:18: With your research perspective How is streaming may be changed.

00:05:23: The way this young audience using that content watch

00:05:26: changes ever present attention spans our shorter and shorter.

00:05:32: the amount of content That gets put out seems to be infinitely more and more.

00:05:38: So the attention spans are making it hard for people to catch and retain information about content because everything is entertaining, full content, it's TikToks of the world.

00:05:56: It's human interaction and a click them rate right now is something around three percent.

00:06:02: so we have very little time to grab somebody's attention before they're ready.

00:06:16: The younger the people are, the harder is for them to stick around for longer format. So we have to be cognizant of that change in that shift. Second screening is always very, as an adult in the room is very disturbing but it's a behavior that we all engage.

00:06:21: So were challenged by these forces to change how humans process information and not just about content.

00:06:28: its everything I think really important.

00:06:31: when you're making stuff and thinking about how you're marketing it to keep in mind that it's ever shorter. The volume is ever larger. And your jobs, from my perspective

00:06:42: Your job is to make sure that people know when and where to find your content.

00:06:46: I think i find myself lately saying things like if you're putting out a poster it's very important that your title as well as where in the release date of what you're putting are just equal in space they're occupying because person remembers were-to go their likely be recommended for them versus remembering what it is and then having to find that.

00:07:11: So I challenge you to think about helping people to remember what and where and when when you're approaching marketing these days.

00:07:20: Totally, I'm so glad you're saying also because when we say content right?

00:07:24: I mean i see the rise of vertical micro-dramas webtoons snackable stuff.

00:07:31: And then we have AI personalization drive We have everything coming up Everything becomes immersive liquid multiple.

00:07:39: So how do you deal with that Right?

00:07:42: So Adriana, you work with your consultancy also with filmmakers directly, and they're also trying to address the young audiences because they are the future, basically. 

00:07:51: So what do they most underestimate when you work with them?

00:07:55: What do you notice?

00:07:56: I think one of the challenges is less underestimating and actually overestimating.

00:08:01: i think we're all bombarded every day by All Of The New Things That Are Out There whether that's AI or it's vertical dramas.

00:08:09: influencers aren't that new anymore but It Is Certainly Something That Filmmakers are Often Thinking About And We Have A Tendency To Overestimate I Think Some Of The Importance Of These New Technologies.

00:08:18: Yes They are opportunities.

00:08:20: Yes, there are potential tactics that we can use but just because you cast an influencer for example does not mean That influencers ten million people are going to show up to watch your movie and so I think more than underestimating We have a challenge with overestimating the importance of these things.

00:08:36: You know within our world?

00:08:37: We talk a lot about vertical dramas And yes they're certainly growing in.

00:08:41: yes There is certainly an opportunity there But it's not a mass audience.

00:08:45: It's not for every genre for every audience yet.

00:08:50: I think it's an important place to explore, to experiment and be thinking about but i think its very easy to chase the latest shiny object on AI right?

00:09:00: We've got lots of different things that are out there competing in.

00:09:02: And we forget that, you know, traditional media still hits the majority of our audience, whether it's a billboard that's outside or television or even radio. I mean, we don't even talk about radio practically, but a huge percentage of people in the world still listen to traditional radio. And so you don't want to forget about the tried and true just because you're chasing these shiny objects. 

00:09:24: And I think that's part of our challenge.

00:09:26: is there a lot noise out there.

00:09:28: we are trying break through as marketers or audiences.

00:09:32: Good

00:09:32: point!

00:09:33: Who heard Radio this morning?

00:09:38: Okay let us move on... Oliver!

00:09:42: The case on Osharu's data, how do young audiences maybe in Europe engage with independent team when you compare it to the US?

00:09:51: Do you note specific differences in behavior?

00:09:55: and that impacts marketing decisions.

00:09:57: I suppose...the audience are very similar.

00:09:58: like there is a lot of similarities between young audiences in Europe and the

00:10:01: U.S.,

00:10:02: we're all kids who are busy.

00:10:05: their attention spans are terrible everywhere.

00:10:07: It isn't an USA thing or European.

00:10:11: The biggest thing that we see from the data is paid.

00:10:13: advertising does not cut through with younger audiences versus older audiences.

00:10:19: There needs to be a reason for them to leave social media come true, too.

00:10:22: website.

00:10:23: and I was doing an analysis of TikTok traffic that comes through two distributors websites though he managed.

00:10:29: it's the conversion rate for people going through to a theater or to cinema or go into streaming services.

00:10:35: point one percent.

00:10:36: so Someone's on tiktok.

00:10:38: They're scrolling.

00:10:39: that point three is actually just like crazy, but they go to see a film the click on it There not even letting the show times load there literally sort of getting into the page seeing the film and their bouncing back out.

00:10:52: So did the challenge I think as to create or original content?

00:10:56: That's going to engage young audiences And this is also.

00:11:00: That sort of brings in two AI.

00:11:01: Like when someone's looking for a film they probably asking Is his film worth watching?

00:11:06: And so ideas of original content could be five reasons why you're gonna love this film, something that AI can parse.

00:11:14: But also when someone finds it they go okay.

00:11:17: now I want to watch this and generally what we are seeing from AI or organic traffic is a much higher conversion for young audiences.

00:11:28: When they wanna watch the film then watch in cinema.

00:11:30: We see.

00:11:31: actually the big difference between young audiences and old audiences is, young audiences have a much higher percentage that are watching the film.

00:11:37: That's on streaming services but it also probably because of the younger content might be doing day-in date release.

00:11:43: so its not just releasing in cinemas as well at home entertainment.

00:11:47: But for content that skews a little bit older The distributors are literally just theatrical there.

00:11:55: no like very little engagement from streaming for an audience that skews a bit older.

00:12:00: Thankfully,

00:12:01: there is debate.

00:12:03: I've been observing through different festivals and conferences which... There's the theory young people are going back more massively to cinemas or theatres.

00:12:19: I would have the take to say, yes we can see little trends and little experiences but actually it's not massive enough.

00:12:28: What do you think about the data?

00:12:31: Do you have any evidence saying that younger people are going back into the cinema?

00:12:36: How is this...do you have a piece of evidence?

00:12:39: I would probably defer to Marina on this here, but the thing that we see is young audiences love like kids.

00:12:44: Love film Like my kid's of my oldest nine absolutely loves it.

00:12:49: It's like any excuse.

00:12:50: got the cinema great.

00:12:51: fifteen sixteen year olds will go there.

00:12:53: There's anecdotal evidence.

00:12:55: what?

00:12:55: We hear about people are now dating and its cool to go in a date to the cinema again.

00:12:59: always

00:13:00: has been

00:13:00: Yeah, and there's schemes like Cineville in Europe where they're actually average age is a lot younger.

00:13:07: So those people who are you know, eighteen to twenty four actually go into the cinema and they're watching European content And their watching content that You Know People would traditionally say skews older.

00:13:17: so look The market Is There.

00:13:19: It's it's product Market Fit.

00:13:20: This My Sort of Tech World.

00:13:21: You Know Its Product Market Fit.

00:13:22: You Need To Have The Right Audience For The Right Film And Reach Out To Them In The Right Channels To Get Them To Engage.

00:13:29: There's definitely a lot of talk about the under-twenty fives coming back to the cinema.

00:13:34: Yes, because they're so critical to the business.

00:13:36: The younger segments always open films at the cinema and if it opens well enough It stays around long enough for the old people to come.

00:13:44: as you said They are not necessarily chasing information.

00:13:48: So that has always been the case.

00:13:50: families in young people our critical two movie going because you kind of at that stage in life start your own personal relationship with movie going, which has been this last generation an issue because they've been pulling away from going to the cinema.

00:14:04: Because a perception is everything's available on Netflix.

00:14:08: most of time even when it's not on Netflix people believe its there good for them to brand.

00:14:13: well but their have had headlines recently under twenty-five returning to the Cinema A. they are for the right piece of content. They're not platforming , they're not going to the cinema for the sake of Going To The Cinema which has been the case.

00:14:27: They are going For The Right Content That's Made For Them Which Is The Importance Again Of Making Sure that They Know When And Where Your Content is.

00:14:35: If It'S For Them You Just Help Them.

00:14:37: Remember That'S My Plea.

00:14:39: The More Important Point Is That The Increase Is Off A Small Base Behavior.

00:14:45: So when you Have a Small Base Of People Doing Something and Then There'S An Increase a viable change.

00:14:54: So yes, they are coming back for certain content if you make it for them and then remember but there not platforming to the behavior of going into movies regardless.

00:15:05: what is in same way that prior generations were Something that we as an industry I specifically am obsessed with.

00:15:12: it is in industry.

00:15:13: We need to keep teaching young people To keep coming no matter what?

00:15:17: It is to discover new content That maybe he's not made for them.

00:15:21: but this habitual behavior Is what really, really important For the health of theatrical.

00:15:26: i

00:15:26: would like to stay With you and dig a little bit more into that because The shift from theatrical viewing where will have these twenty minutes drive?

00:15:33: world Of most?

00:15:34: to streaming behavior, where the first five to 10 minutes determine if they're going to watch or not, how did it change the way we have to position and market

00:15:43: The film.

00:15:44: That's always a tough one right?

00:15:45: what do you do?

00:15:46: Do You creatively tell us story about your Story Or do you go in the first three seconds And try To grab their attention?

00:15:53: Right It's Always A push-and-pull.

00:15:54: So In a marketing World When We are More Removed From Your Content Than You Are.

00:16:01: As Filmmakers and Producers We Always want to hook People as Quickly as Possible.

00:16:06: Then The Flip of it Becomes.

00:16:08: Do you lose the creative passion for making that content?

00:16:13: Or do you forego to control over the creative process when it comes to the content that markets your content, or do you approach that also as an auteur which is often the case.

00:16:23: So I think there's this balance that needs to happen where both sides of the creative and distribution process come together with understanding Very little time to grab people's attention very quickly.

00:16:36: You will have.

00:16:37: if you manage To hook them with something, you will likely have an opportunity to allow them to pull more content later on.

00:16:45: But the idea is that any interaction that you have has to hook them very quickly and has to give them stuff, they return back.

00:16:53: And go search for more.

00:16:54: Adriana

00:16:55: given this change in these audience commitments so-to speak how do you think should a filmmaker now rethink the marketing strategies when audiences decide much earlier if they stay or don't say it will come at all?

00:17:08: So I think one of the things to really understand is that you have to know where your movie is going to be shown, to understand the audience's behavior.

00:17:16: To then understand how you're going to market them.

00:17:18: so it is very different from a streaming platform for example than two markets or theatrical.

00:17:25: in case if they are trying to convince somebody leave their home make an appointment go into theater and do before making decisions.

00:17:34: traditionally we have awareness interest action as sort of different stages in your marketing campaign.

00:17:40: You need them to be aware that you're movie, then take interest and finally action.

00:17:45: In the case theatrical this is quite significant right?

00:17:48: To block out a period time make appointment go into theater.

00:17:52: so have work really hard convince each one those stage.

00:17:56: on streaming they are often becoming aware or interested.

00:18:03: Moment right you go on to Netflix.

00:18:05: You see the storefront with a bunch of poster images.

00:18:08: Yeah, that's when you become aware of it.

00:18:10: Then you're like oh there's something in it whether It's an actor or the genre?

00:18:14: That makes you interested.

00:18:15: you click in that moment.

00:18:16: So it's a very different approach is a very Different timeline and The amount of information that you're able to give is very different And therefore you have to think about it differently Depending on where your audience Is going to interact with your movie.

00:18:30: but that's good.

00:18:31: and he's changing fast because because I'm thinking now with AI-driven search, and I'm turning to you Oliver.

00:18:38: Probably we have new audience pathways.

00:18:41: so speak to discover this content maybe through chat GPT or what?

00:18:50: use Mistral, it's from France and Europe.

00:18:55: Does the content strategy change from generating assets to two-phase marketing?

00:19:02: How is this AI stuff

00:19:05: for us as a company?

00:19:06: so we build websites for distributors And I'm always going like are people gonna go do web sites in five years time?

00:19:12: what We're seeing right now Is People Are Going To AI For Everything.

00:19:16: Like i'm checking For pretty much most things, I'm going to AI first asking the question.

00:19:22: And then what AI is doing is sourcing information and it's trying to say okay well who are the credible sources for this content?

00:19:29: Some AI-friendly content... It really ugly!

00:19:35: We want to build sexy websites that get people interested in film but you need to put the information away so they can be parsed if that makes sense.

00:19:42: So like the AIs looking for Who Is The Credible Source for the question that's been asked?

00:19:48: and so like search engine optimization, a lot of it to do with video.

00:19:51: A lot of us have to deal with images tagging this content correctly And then allowing these search engines say This is the credible source in sending someone what?

00:20:00: The AI engines Dois.

00:20:02: they basically will cite their relevant sources and people Then go to say okay Let's find out more information on that.

00:20:10: So I think producers distributors content creators need to think Why will someone want to watch my film if I'm a distributor?

00:20:17: Like, why did i select this film?

00:20:19: like make a short piece of content saying we're in Berlin.

00:20:22: We saw the film The Room were Electric.

00:20:24: it got a standing ovation and we loved us.

00:20:27: And I bought this film because you know...why do you personally enjoy it?

00:20:31: Like, you're a person who's, we're moving from a creator's economy to a curator's economy, and I think a distributor is curating incredible content for their country, and why you're curating it. like A24 are nailing it. People actually go, it's an A24 film, 

00:20:48: i'll get that.

00:20:50: In Europe, we're seeing a lot of organizations are spending more time trying to become an A24. And it's a visual look, but it's also a content choice. So it's just sharing that. It's just sharing why you're selecting it. And then you're trying to get some original content about the film. So why the filmmakers made it, 

00:21:07: Why the talent are doing that?

00:21:08: So anything like that helps basically raise up a profile for people to find us.

00:21:15: and then what's all-about in week of release is just conversion.

00:21:19: It gets as many people who have shown interest six months before To come to your website, find out the cinemas or streaming services plan it and convert.

00:21:29: And then just people who go into a cinema's websites.

00:21:33: most people in e-commerce are not ready to buy like they're looking at.

00:21:36: this looks great but have their wife or granny or friends that want see them.

00:21:41: don't buy ticket there.

00:21:43: retarget those people.

00:21:45: we see its.

00:21:45: roughly fifteen percent of people send us to a cinema website make purchase.

00:21:50: eighty five percent is not ready.

00:21:53: Don't focus on the person who watched twenty five percent or more of the trailer.

00:21:56: Focus in a people that actually just most likely abandoned the cart.

00:22:00: and if you retarget those people on a cost per click basis, they want to bought ticket are not gonna interact with the ads.

00:22:07: ones forgot about it like oh yeah I actually wanna watch this film.

00:22:10: so its just e-commerce.

00:22:11: This is, you know, making films is art, selling films, e-commerce, and it's just take people through that journey. And I totally agree with the awareness. 

00:22:21: We use that fun in our analytics, it's you know.

00:22:24: awareness we always see is when someone comes to our partners websites but the interest for us its like.

00:22:29: if somebody watches a trailer thats great and someone searches their city thats little bit better.

00:22:35: action where your really need target because they're not making transaction there taking an action

00:22:40: Yes.

00:22:40: It seems to me, even when you're speaking that we don't only have a two-phase marketing with one phase of awareness and one face of conversion but we even have the retargeting phase like oh well... We are going to chase you or get

00:22:52: you!

00:22:53: So I see that the role of data is becoming very central to this, if I understand that, right? 

00:23:01: So it's all about rapid testing optimization and reduce the risk.

00:23:06: That will lose these audiences.

00:23:08: so Marina from your experience across other studios in the platforms also what kinds of data actually help marketers to test and optimize on and reduce their risks?

00:23:22: This is a very loaded question. I love this question. Unfortunately, I'll start with the bad news. 

00:23:29: The bad news is that there's very little data that connects ticket buyers to marketing machines.

00:23:35: People who purchase tickets purchased them from exhibitors and they focus on their loyalty program members.

00:23:41: Their efforts are spent in people most likely to show back up regardless of what film it.

00:23:47: When you market a movie, you want to market it for people who are available.

00:23:52: If somebody had finished watching your trailer in whatever format and served them the fact that they have finished watching it signifies deeper interest.

00:24:01: If they are not interested, they will abandon it. 

00:24:04: So knowing who had seen something halfway or fully already identifies somebody for you. 

00:24:12: unfortunately this data is not owned by you or your distributors, it's owned by the social media platforms where you buy digital advertising.

00:24:21: So forcing partnerships with and they're not very good about sharing but trying to learn.

00:24:27: sadly Twitter used to be.

00:24:29: But don't use that data.

00:24:30: It is not representative of anybody.

00:24:33: unless You have an older man skewing action movie maybe Those still make money in the movies theaters.

00:24:42: So I think it's really important that you partner with your distributors as early as possible and partner with the exhibition as early as possible to try understanding on a first-party basis who the consumers are that are engaging with your content. 

00:24:58: I wish it was easier to do. I am definitely focused on it still as I was last year. year on making sure that there becomes this first-party data set that you can use. 

00:25:09: But I think generally as your approaching data and research, I want to think of it in three buckets.

00:25:14: There is exploratory research where you explore what's possible.

00:25:18: You explore who is interested in your content and what about it is interesting. Then there is comparative research where you compare what you have to other performers or other comps or things that you're core releasing with or similar content. 

00:25:33: And then there is comparative research, and then there's confirmatory research where you actually confirm whether what you have is working the way that you want for the consumers that you wanted.

00:25:45: Sometimes you might find other audiences through this process.

00:25:48: so I would like I generally think about things in that framework.

00:25:52: What's your goal for the data you're seeking?

00:25:54: Seeking data, for the sake of having data is not a good exercise but... Having a question in mind and have a hypothesis in mind that you are exploring And trying to figure out.

00:26:04: Are you trying to find something or compare it Or are you trying measure it and refine it?

00:26:09: And i recommend doing all three if You Have The Luxury Of Doing Because It Kind Of Gives A More Holistic View.

00:26:16: If Your Getting The Right Message To The Right Consumer

00:26:19: So Adriana, because you are really at the front with your clients there.

00:26:23: I mean like

00:26:24: how

00:26:24: can we make sure that we don't fall into complete over-analysis and losing creative direction?

00:26:30: How do we ensure that we're still aware of these early signals who were thinking about it a little bit before—like engagement or interest in their reaction…how to make this happen?

00:26:44: between mass and this art.

00:26:49: It's true.

00:26:49: It's true, and I think marketing also has this mix of art and science to it. And I'm going to go back to what I said earlier about not overestimating the importance of certain things. Marina just mentioned Twitter. I mean, one of the things that filmmakers do again and again is they are swayed by a few comments, by a few fans, sometimes happy fans, sometimes angry fans.

00:27:10: And they take that as a representative signal of the entire world hates our trailer or the entire world wants to see, you know, something very specific about the movie. And those echo chambers are not necessarily reflective of your overall audience. And so it's really important to be doing actual real research with a representative focus group or quantitative data that can give you real answers about what your audience truly wants because otherwise it's very easy to be swayed by 

00:27:40: What you think is data and there was really just signals within an echo chamber

00:27:44: right?

00:27:45: So that's a big challenge.

00:27:47: one of the thing I wanted to go back to.

00:27:49: we were talking about in terms of data and retargeting people i think put a lot emphasis on re-targeting.

00:27:56: who have watched our trailers?

00:27:57: which is great. We absolutely need to drive them to action to buy tickets, what we often forget about too is then using the people who bought the tickets to help influence others after having gone and I think that's just as important if not more important.

00:28:12: We talk about influencers within social media but bought a ticket for your film, already watched and enjoyed the film to get them to recommend it to

00:28:22: their social circle is you're best form of marketing.

00:28:26: to keep that word-of mouth going.

00:28:27: And we often forget about... Oh!

00:28:29: We got them all ready.

00:28:30: they bought there tickets overdone.

00:28:31: moving on let's gets somebody else.

00:28:33: Those are the people who can really help you to get others to go along and watch the movie afterwards.

00:28:39: Oliver?

00:28:40: I think it's such an interesting point, we see a huge amount of user shared content like in Europe.

00:28:45: WhatsApp is obviously massive And really interesting.

00:28:49: actually there was for one faith based title and those are like so many people sharing on social media.

00:28:55: They're obviously showing with their kids.

00:28:57: try to get them watch faith-based content because the conversion rate is so low, but you see for younger titles when they share it on WhatsApp You see a really high conversion?

00:29:06: So People trust their friends and that's very interesting.

00:29:08: I've actually never thought this should definitely retarget purchasers to say like share the love.

00:29:13: It's a very simple way of getting people to advocate for your content.

00:29:18: And one filmmaker we work with, he was doing a lot of grassroots outreach and the one thing that he said... He had a film with zero marketing budget.. Had huge like really successful title!

00:29:31: I said well what's success?

00:29:32: And goes everyone who shared it always went back and say thank you.

00:29:35: He said thank you for people sharing and what they do the next day.

00:29:38: They share it again.

00:29:39: Yeah, so You know It's just like being human and saying thank you to people.

00:29:43: And you know people who are enjoying us.

00:29:46: Can you retarget them and shared more about the film?

00:29:48: The making of you know content like that will which we'll encourage the sharing and actually Use a message share the contents you know share the love.

00:29:57: I Will add one more thing make it easy for them to share.

00:30:00: right Again this is yeah It's the balance of control versus creative, create content that once they buy tickets if you go this way.

00:30:08: That makes it as simple because a content needs to be shareable and share worthy.

00:30:13: so th-this thing is important Because If They're Sharing Something It's A Reflection Of Themselves.

00:30:18: So You Want To Give Him An Ability To Kind Of Be An Opinion Leader In A Way Cause Its Reflective Of Who They Are But Also Make It Super Easy For Them To Just Forward It Or Copy Paste or Whatever.

00:30:28: Just Like There'S A Great Google always talks about two clicks or too many, give them a very simple way to almost mindlessly go and do it rather than thinking through.

00:30:40: And having to find it in having to work to take that content and move elsewhere.

00:30:45: Just think about the seamlessness of the experience and make it instant and easy..

00:30:51: I think it's very typical to more behavioral e-commerce inspired approach.

00:30:56: basically, right?

00:30:58: You like this so you're like that... This person loves this or your gonna love that!

00:31:02: So let us talk about the scaling.

00:31:04: It is a good moment now.

00:31:08: we have some marketing events on the one hand, specific exhibition tactics and etc.

00:31:14: But we have also this sustainable long-term audience behavior so to speak.

00:31:18: how can we move from these two that?

00:31:20: And Marina from the behavioral research perspective why is it actually so difficult To turn one of marketing events into a repeat audience behavior like make them even go more enjoy more there?

00:31:35: Unfortunately as I said attention spans are very scarce overwhelming amount of information, and everything is content.

00:31:43: Everything takes up

00:31:44: time.".

00:31:45: I think the challenge generally has been that we as an industry have taught people immediacy of things—everything will be available at your fingertips right now!

00:31:57: And if it's not?

00:31:58: It'll be somewhere in a very short period.

00:32:07: So from the collapsing window strategy, unfortunately, the economics followed. 

00:32:09: If piece of content is available on streaming first, it's the only time that makes money if its available in theatrical and has a runway for several years to keep monetizing to find our audiences earlier and theatrical because it's a different relationship.

00:32:28: If you look at the streaming behavior, things that are viewed most on those platforms or things have been made elsewhere and have made it out theatrically or on networks.  I think that the challenge of, and i refer to this as content behavior versus platforming behavior.

00:32:45: Content is where you watch a piece of content no matter what it is.

00:32:48: Platforming is when you sit down on your couch And you click in that Netflix style.

00:32:53: and for 10 minutes you poke around, dissatisfied about what you're finding, but you stick around because Netflix did a really good job of teaching you that anything you want will be there

00:33:04:  and it hasn't been for a very long time.

00:33:05: So they did a really great job of changing the way that we behave by teaching us that they're there to entertain you. 

00:33:13: No matter what... You'll be entertained.

00:33:15: Theatrical as Adriana was saying it's a heavier lift.

00:33:19: It requires you to remember, to proactively go and buy tickets, to advocate for others to join you. 

00:33:28: And unfortunately, with all these forces that I'm talking about younger people are making different choices.

00:33:33: So I think it for us is an industry that I still believe needs to be theatrical first in order to sustain. You just need the economics of it to keep making good content.

00:33:43: So I think for us, we need to come together for the creative community, and the businesses of and the marketing side of distribution to teach people 

00:33:53: To keep coming to movies regardless what content is.

00:33:56: so I think that shift needs for platforming And it's possible to do.

00:34:01: Uber taught us to uber.

00:34:03: even when we lift.

00:34:04: We're in cities like LA have never cabbed.

00:34:09: So people can be taught using technology.

00:34:14: to do things the same way that streaming taught us not to.

00:34:16: so I think there's a very necessary forces that need to come together for this industry.

00:34:20: To teach young people who choose to go to the cinema regardless of what's there.

00:34:25: Would like to add something on scaling? 

00:34:27: Yeah, I mean, I would build on what Marina is saying. I think it's about building habit. 

00:34:31: For many years, for decades in fact there was a habit of movie going and studios and distributors were responsible for marketing individual films.

00:34:40: But really what sustained the industry is that people regularly went to theater.

00:34:45: it's part of oh Friday night let us go out on dinner with a movie right?

00:34:48: That was just ingrained into what we did.

00:34:51: We have broken that habit during COVID.

00:34:53: I think people underestimate the fact exhibitors need come together all-together.

00:35:01: with studios to recreate that habit.

00:35:02: Because it wasn't necessary in the past, because we had the momentum and the inertia.

00:35:07: they're not used to having their loyalty base, only speaking to a very select number of customers who are continuing to come.

00:35:17: We need to rebuild that habit because otherwise the lift is incredibly high and we're in this feast-and-fammon moment right?

00:35:24: And the business can't live just by a couple of Marvel movies every year.

00:35:28: it needs steady stream of movies.

00:35:30: There are plenty of movies, but not plenty of movies that can bring in mass audiences just on their own marketing budgets.

00:35:38: It's way too expensive and way too heavy of a lift to do. for every single movie. And so we need to work on that in order to scale. 

00:35:45: And it will lift everything up if we can recreate the moving habit across

00:35:50: generations.".

00:36:00: I mean, there will be another debate. Maybe we'll have it next year in the next sequel. Can we do that? But Oliver, to finish on scaling, I just wanted to ask you, do you see big differences between Europe and the US on this point?

00:36:07: I think the US is still relying more like on a mass marketing model. So, like, what we would see is the population of the 

00:36:13: U.S.,

00:36:13: probably four times bigger than Germany.

00:36:16: but US distributors spend an awful lot more money on advertising and it's probably twenty X with a German partner.

00:36:23: So they would spend, you know, five times more to reach the audience.

00:36:28: I think from a European perspective, especially with distributors who we work with, it's not a sustainable model. And we're really sort of pushing. We want this industry to be resilient. 

00:36:39: It's be resilient.

00:36:40: you need to go direct a consumer unique on your audience.

00:36:43: you know what they like.

00:36:44: you know.

00:36:45: What platforms that watch will I watch TV ad as far.

00:36:49: what platforms they watch. Will they watch TVod, SVod? So we've built kind of community features, a little bit like letterboxed, so people can track which films they've watched, they've rated. And what we're trying to do with this is to give our partners an audience that they own. On the social media,

00:37:03: if the social media is free, you are the product. And so you're bringing the traffic to those social media platforms. 

00:37:09: But by owning the relationship with the consumers, you can reach out and say, hey, Ali, I think you'd like this film because you liked that. And they can build personal relationships and build a real, like a meaningful community. 

00:37:19: and I think that's where I see the future for the European industry. The budgets are

00:37:23: not the same If you're not taking a Disney film, You can't have the same expectations that your going to have.

00:37:30: That size audience if the odds are stacked against you... ...you need play it differently and its own the audience.

00:37:37: learn what they like.

00:37:39: And then what we see.

00:37:40: actually in the

00:37:40: U.S.,

00:37:41: which I think is interesting, is there's players like Paramount and Universal, what they're capturing first-party data to build look-alike audiences.

00:37:49: So on the ad exchanges, they're finding out that Oliver Fegan likes this, this, and this. And they're saying, well, is there another 20 Oliver Fegan's there that we can retarget

00:37:58: and they're going after them. And I think there's lessons to be learned from this. But at the end of the day, it's know who your audience are, what they like, and then be able to communicate with them. 

00:38:07: That's the future, I think for European industry because we don't have... There are some partners we deal with.

00:38:13: their budget is three thousand euros to promote a film in France!

00:38:18: It's like, how are you going to get an audience for this? 

00:38:20: You know it's very challenging.

00:38:22: Let

00:38:22: us move on to real case studies.

00:38:25: What about, I mean, we have Marty Supreme coming out, I don't know, next week, two weeks or something like that, or soon, for sure.

00:38:34: Do we have any insights about their marketing strategy?

00:38:37: Can somebody say something about it, who would like to.

00:38:40: Well, I'll start by saying that that is a movie that I think on paper probably had no audience. If you think about a ping pong player who's not a very likable person who's just out for himself, right? You think about who is the natural audience for that? You think, well, like three people maybe in the world. 

00:38:58: So I'm very impressed by what they've done, Timothée Chalamet makes that movie because it has become a Timothée Chalamet movie and that is what people are showing up for.

00:39:07: And he's probably one of the only movie stars at this point in time who not only can attract an audience but also willing to go the extra mile do all crazy stunts all over the world, wearing his orange suit and attracting attention.

00:39:23: And self-promoting in a way that created a movie without him would not have ever become anywhere near the phenomenon that it has been becoming in other countries where its released to date.

00:39:34: so I think power to them for having first thought to cast him and be convinced him to do that and to go the extra mile. It's very impressive 

00:39:43: what they've accomplished.

00:39:50: I think it's helped tremendously, he said recently in a radio interview, that it was totally his character. And people are like, I'm going to discover Timothée Chalamet in the films. It's really fun.

00:39:56: I feel for me it feels like they had a campaign that was standalone entertainment experience, right?

00:40:03: They were marketing the movie.

00:40:05: but you are in these crazy things all of this stunts there.

00:40:09: that they were doing. So you almost went on a journey to watch what their marketing was like versus the movie itself. And it was very expensive.

00:40:19: So it's when you have talent.

00:40:22: who is willing to take on this, to do this kind of work.

00:40:26: We were lucky that we worked together sometimes with people specifically Ryan Reynolds on name who was just a prolific marketer on top of being an amazingly talented human-being.

00:40:38: But when you have talent who's willing to do this, 

00:40:40: it almost becomes its own movie in itself. And you're lucky if you do.

00:40:44: Yeah, that's a very interesting point.

00:40:46: I wouldn't know maybe to move to a Netflix case,

00:40:49: Maybe something like the K-pop Demon Hunters...

00:40:53: I'm all about international content finding its audience globally and expanding beyond what the original audiences is.

00:41:00: And i think whats really fascinating about k-pop demon hunters in particular one of the only films that we've ever seen, started in streaming and then come back to a theatrical instead of opposite way around like Marina was saying.

00:41:13: And I think it speaks to audience behavior of younger audiences in particular where-and i saw this on my niece who's seven years old!

00:41:21: She discovered Kpop Demon Hunters at home.

00:41:24: she learned all songs watched at Ednazium Then wanted experience with other people also loved what she loved.

00:41:34: And so, you know, for people of our age, 

00:41:35: Going to the theater is usually about leaving the phone outside or turning it on silence and you want pristine audio, and you wanna pristine gigantic movie screen what younger audiences are often looking for is community in theaters.

00:41:48: so they like watching at home whenever they want too.

00:41:51: but when we go into a theater they want to watch it with other people who enjoy what their watching.

00:41:55: And we saw this with Barbie and we saw this with Minecraft and we saw this with Kpop demon hunters. And it's very different. 

00:42:01: And there's a second screen component to that where they want to be filming themselves doing the chicken dance and singing along inside the movie theaters, right? 

00:42:09: And they wanna share That not just with the people in the theater but also With people in other theaters who are all so experiencing this.

00:42:16: And so it's more of a concert type of experience. 

00:42:19: It's a live interactive experience. 

00:42:22: And I think we're going to see more of these types of experiments coming, whether it's organic, as in the case of K-pop Demon Hunters, where I don't think Netflix saw that. coming, 

00:42:33: But they learned to embrace it because they see the data.

00:42:35: They see that people are watching and build off of that, right?

00:42:38: And find opportunities or I think experimenting with a theatrical format to find ways... ...to make it inherently interactive and really tap into that new audience behavior.

00:42:51: That's manifesting, so the more we can find ways to lean in to that,... ..the more we are going bring back those younger audiences to theatres regularly which is great!

00:43:02: Great, then i'm gonna ask you next year what happened with these young audiences now?

00:43:08: Have a quick look at vertical drama economy.

00:43:12: Also, if someone would like to pick that this I don't know.

00:43:15: Like try before you buy model who would like too?

00:43:19: It can do.

00:43:20: yes start.

00:43:20: please give it up to you Consumers.

00:43:23: when it comes to going to the theaters consumers perspectives are that go into the movies is expensive Right.

00:43:28: It's not that the value of the ticket, it's not about a dollar amount, but because you think that everything's available for free at home, even when you pay a subscription fee, because you don't pay for it in the moment. 

00:43:40: So the perception has been about the value of money.

00:43:43: The same younger people will pay hundreds to go to concerts or festivals, but movies seem ubiquitous and dollar-value reposition is off a little bit.

00:43:54: What vertical dramas have done which I find very interesting.

00:43:58: is this freemium or pay-per-view idea where you get a snack of something, short format. And if you like it, 

00:44:06: You can keep paying right?

00:44:07: They let you sample a little bit, and then you can keep paying for more snacks a little bit at a time. And oftentimes it ends up being quite expensive. 

00:44:23: You can get into like a $20 range for completing one of those vertical dramas that is an equivalent of a movie that you would have seen. So this perception that people have about what its worth seems to work when they have an ability to snack a little bit and then get sucked into it.

00:44:32: In video games, you know, it's freemiums that you pay for.

00:44:36: so I think... It is interesting for me see we are playing with this idea because the value there if feel like they get sucked in enough.

00:44:48: It works specific segments or genres thus far really looking forward what else evolves out of.

00:44:56: I think it's great that consumers are willing to pay.

00:45:03: I would add to that, sorry, just in terms of risk, I think, is where this inherently comes into play. If you're going to buy a movie ticket, you are risking potentially two hours of going to a movie that you may not like, right? This is from an audience behavior perspective.

00:45:17: But you have to commit and pay the money upfront, then commit your time up front for streaming.

00:45:22: For streaming, there's a very low risk because you press play. And if after five minutes you don't like it, you X out of it and you find something else to watch. 

00:45:29: And in the case of the vertical drama, there's also zero risk because you start, you watch one minute for free. If you like it, 

00:45:36: then you watch another minute for free. And then by the time you're 

00:45:39: Hooked.

00:45:40: There's no risk.

00:45:41: You already know that you're enjoying that content and every minute, you are reinforcing whether or not your still interested.

00:45:47: So I think it's just a reflection of our risk aversion in terms of being entertained and that opportunity cost. versus watching TikTok or Instagram or YouTube or any of our many other options of how to be entertained today.

00:46:02: It was really good!

00:46:03: We wrote like a complete report about risks taking into cinema.

00:46:09: Anyway, I wanted to ask you too.

00:46:12: Do we have a case today that would like to bring maybe US-Europe different things?

00:46:20: A couple actually... The general point here is which i think it's so interesting what the guys are saying.

00:46:28: You've got one night out probably for about a month or week depending on your economic situation.

00:46:35: What I think film distributors and filmmakers need to do is really make it clear that they get people emotionally invested in the story.

00:46:42: So, its not just seeing the trailers like why should i watch this?

00:46:45: Is there a movement?

00:46:46: my son chicken jockey he was going to go watch that cinema because you saw so many memes of this And those definitely manufactured.

00:46:54: There's some interesting European partners.

00:46:56: we work with studio canal.

00:46:59: They're doing some really interesting stuff for a release, Woodwalkers which is German I suppose piece of content like as film series.

00:47:07: And what they are trying to do it's build sustainable communities between the releases so that built WhatsApp community groups where people can talk about and... The second films currently in cinemas haven't looked since their first film came out but had sixty thousand people in a german only language community Which i'm sure its probably doubled by now.

00:47:29: But over the two years between the two films, people are talking about it.

00:47:33: What's going to happen next?

00:47:35: Getting to know that characters and we see other platforms like Discord which I quite interesting from a gaming perspective but also coming into anime where The narrative is about not just selling people a product Like go and see this film by trying to build our relationship.

00:47:52: And then i think thats the really exciting part there's...the game was changing.

00:47:57: the monetization strategy can change.

00:47:59: And it is more challenging sometimes for European content because there's not a single market, you know?

00:48:05: You're distributing only in Germany and Germany's huge market.

00:48:08: if your'e distributed from my country Ireland its tiny... ...and may have success with your film Your Local Market.

00:48:13: but to actually sell an Irish Film in Latvia or in Germany as challenge!

00:48:19: I think theres benefits form US perspective.

00:48:22: For me, I think what we see is where films succeed in their own market and Europe.

00:48:28: They do have a better chance of success.

00:48:31: but for independent content you need to get that initial audience to go on the Friday night—that first weekend.

00:48:37: so the word-of-mouth can happen because Europe creates incredible content.

00:48:41: there's so many good films But when you ask people if they heard this film like oh it was great film Have you watched it?

00:48:47: They've never heard about It.

00:48:48: That' s the problem.

00:48:49: People just don't hear about them.

00:48:51: the US studio system can do or NEON, or A-Twenty Four.

00:48:57: So there's challenges and opportunities... And I think that only way to basically circumnavigate the challenge is by really focusing on building a long term audience which you could communicate with between releases.

00:49:11: We've one partner who works in event cinema industry.

00:49:14: They get twenty five percent of their conversions across all their releases from email marketing.

00:49:19: so they know where their audiences are And it's sometimes as musicals, so they have their musical audience.

00:49:24: They say this musical is coming.

00:49:26: It skews slightly older.

00:49:28: So the other audiences actually are you know there?

00:49:30: They read your email and There and they think this is important.

00:49:35: like I was talking earlier we said my dad gets emails to rate a service one out of ten.

00:49:40: He's like well come into my house Because these persons emailed me twice.

00:49:43: they go down.

00:49:44: its an automated e-mail But but they convert They convert and this is about the audience.

00:49:50: E-mail, it's really something which is underestimated I believe.

00:49:53: yeah absolutely.

00:49:54: And Google ads.

00:49:56: you know people are just doing stuff like.

00:49:57: People Know Facebook Ads!

00:49:59: Like i see sometimes for young audiences or partners they're doing facebook ads For Young Audiences.

00:50:05: What are you doing?

00:50:06: She's like, what do you're doing

00:50:07: by Twitter.

00:50:08: Yeah And it's because they know how to put the ads is really simple.

00:50:11: To put the odds up.

00:50:12: They've done for the last fifteen years.

00:50:13: everyone was on Facebook.

00:50:15: The audiences have left but It's like I know How to Do it.

00:50:18: so i'm sort of fulfilling my duty to do ads.

00:50:21: But then My film doesn't succeed and it Doesn't get the word a mouth and it doesn't You Know scale.

00:50:26: what did I do wrong?

00:50:28: yes Well, here at the European film market I hope that producers got a good input on this platform to make their films be seen and heard before people actually go into cinemas.

00:50:42: And later also in the platforms.

00:50:45: A warm thank you for our wonderful speakers Marina Kosten, Adriana Trotman... ...and Oliver Feghan for sharing their insights about marketing which works!

00:50:55: And of course, thank you dear listeners for joining us and being part this journey.

00:51:00: That's all for todays episode!

00:51:03: This season of Industry Insights is co-funded by Creative Europe Media.

00:51:08: Be sure to subscribe & help spread the word.

00:51:11: You can find us wherever get your podcasts and also on the European Film Market website at www.efm-berlinale.com.

00:51:24: We look forward to welcoming you to future episodes of Industry Insights.

00:51:29: Thank you for listening and goodbye!