AC Coppens:

Hi everyone and welcome to Industry Insights, the EFM podcast, presented by the European Film Market of the Berlinale. My name is AC. Coppens. I'm the founder of the THE CATALYSTS and I will be your host today. This podcast series shines a light on highly topical, trend-setting industry issues. It's designed as a compass for the film year ahead, helping professionals navigate the fast-changing creative landscape. Industry Insights is a year-round podcast co-funded by Creative Europe Media. Today's episode is titled Level Up: Bridging the Worlds of Gaming and Filmmaking. It was recorded live during the EFM Industry Sessions last February, and it offers a fascinating deep dive into how these two creative universes intersect. As the gaming industry continues to flourish and captivate ever-growing audiences, it's far solving technologies and innovative practices are setting new standards for other creative fields. And this session explores how filmmakers can draw inspiration from gaming's approaches to storytelling, audience engagement, skill development, production pipelines, and business strategies, expanding both creative and commercial horizons. Four special guests share their perspectives on how games and films can collaborate, inspire one another and break down traditional silos. Together, they examine IP building, creative language, technological innovation, financing structures and the skills needed to navigate converging industries. The panel also looks ahead to the future, considering how AI and emerging technologies will reshape both storytelling and production. With me are four wonderful guests. Igor Simic, CEO, Demagogues Studio, which created the Apple-featured game Golf Club, Wasteland, and Nostalgia, the Netflix game Highwater, and The Cub, which premiered at the Tribe Cuffin Festival. These games take place in the same world and are accompanied by the acclaimed soundtrack, Radio Nostalgia, from Mars. They call this approach Constellation Storytelling, with A, sharp premise, B, story, C, world building, D, storytelling through non-linear media with focus on gaming. Christina Caspers CEO, Trickster, one of the leading VFX studios in Europe. Before that, Christina was managing director at Dark Bay, Europe's largest virtual production stage. And additionally, Christina is co-founder at the Institute of Immersive Media, which seeks to leverage the latest technology to industry leaders and festivals through education, innovative workshops and collaborative experiences. Mafala Duarte is an international community leader with a background in game development, transmedia storytelling and studio leadership. Formerly studio director at Telescope Games Studios in Germany, she worked on multiple projects for the Wales single-story universe and an award-winning demo for the new IP summer camp. She's chair of IGA Berlin and a board member of the IGDAHQ, where she supports global community initiatives and inclusive industry practices. Maite Woköck, CEO and producer of Telescope Animation and Telescope Game Studios in Germany. She has extensive experience in animated feature film and series development, financing and production. Her credits include Petronella Applewich, the series for Accord Film ZDF, TWO BY TWO, and Niko 2, Little Brother Big Hero, for Alice's film. And since 2022, she's the chairwoman for animation in the German producers' alliance. So now let's dive right in. Here is the live recording of our panel discussion from the EFM Industry Sessions.

So my first intro question for you all is what is the one thing that is bridging these two worlds so that the film can learn from games or games can learn from film? What is the thing you would like to enhance? And I would say again, gentlemen first, Igor.

AC Coppens:

So my first intro question for you all is what is the one thing that is bridging these two worlds so that the film can learn from games or games can learn from film? What is the thing you would like to enhance? And I would say again, gentlemen first, Igor.

Igor Simic:

Yeah, I think the main thing is storytelling. And in the end, both media deal with storytelling. The main difference being that watching a film in a way, is a passive experience while gaming is an interactive storytelling vehicle. And outside of that, in this moment, the main issue or main challenge they share is that essentially, especially for new generations, there's no difference between a TikTok video and a Berlinale premiere and a video game. So you need to grab attention in a landscape where everything has become content

AC Coppens:

Very interesting. Do you want to add, how do you define your credo or method or thinking constellation storytelling? Would you like to define that for all of us, please?

Igor Simic:

Yeah, so what happened was we started the company in December of 2017 with a video game about a world that was struck by a great ecological catastrophe. Jeff Bezos, Elon Musk, Peter Thiel, they escaped to Mars. the rest of us, unless some of you are billionaires, are dead. And a decade or two later, these billionaires come back to Earth to play golf in the ruins. So I pitched that to Apple, and Apple liked it. But the thing is, around the video game, we created also a radio show, like in Grand Theft Auto. And that's like sleepless in Seattle with Meg Ryan, but for people who live on Mars and miss Earth. So the second two games are in the same world. But you can also play each game individually. That's why it's a constellation. All of the Japanese IPs, like One Piece or Cowboy Bebop or Evangelion, function in that way.

AC Coppens:

Okay, thank you. I'm going to jump over to Mafalda and ask you this time. So what can they learn from each other these games and film silos maybe?

Mafalda Duarte:

I would say exactly the not treat each other as silos. It's all about collaboration for both sides and an iteration within themselves. One important thing is that it's less about the projects that you guys want to make, but the teams and the audiences to which you're making them. And I think that's a very important thing that we kind of are star in games. And I feel like movies are kind of chasing that, what our audience looking for, how can I adapt to this new audience?

AC Coppens:

Do they actually understand each other? Do they actually speak the same language?

Mafalda Duarte:

I would say that there's a lot of languages that feel the same. You know, you have producers in both sides, but maybe on one side, that role would have more of a catalyst type of power. And then in games, for example, in the India perspective, a lot of teams start without one at all. Like we keep saying, please hire a producer. But there would be a development more pushed forward by the creators themselves, I would say, than management-type roles, for example. And other differences are like what pre-production means or production, what are those time frames? Where are the core aspect of ideation and the core aspect of production? And those are very important things to keep in mind moving forward. It's like, yes, it feels like we know each other, but at the same time that it needs to come from an open heart and open perspective, like, okay, maybe you guys have something to teach me too.

AC Coppens:

And now I jump back also to Christina. So what's your take on this with games and films? Because with VFX, you have a lot to do with both, right?

Christina Caspers:

Absolutely. I think the technology aspect is totally crucial to take into consideration because we're basically using similar or sometimes the same technologies or the same software tools and we are not often enough combining these so the feeling of belonging together should be even closer than we have it now at the moment so when we are for example developing a character for a feature or an episodic we could totally and we're often asked in a second step to include it into a game or merchandising or whatsoever but if we can cooperate incorporate this more earlier we could save budgets more creative on how to develop certain things. Also look to the audience what is needed when we are creating certain aspects of a character for children's movies. How is this different to when we're doing an action movie, for example, and doing a gaming after mass.

AC Coppens:

Maite, what about you?

Maite Woköck:

So my background is in film and I think probably most of yours is as well. So what I find very interesting when I look at games and how Mafalda and her team develops this is this community building from the beginning that a game team really tries to reach their audience from the minute they start the idea almost, which I think is something that in film we can learn a lot from to really look at who's the audience and how can we reach them even maybe already during production and start this.

AC Coppens:

Good. So now, what I want to do is I have seven fields that I want to cover. IP, creativity, technology, skills, business, audience, and the future. We have 35 minutes. So let's take the first question. I wanted to start with the IP challenge because this is where you start to build, I mean, the idea, the world building, the whole thing, it's all starting from there, right? This very point where it starts like, oh, this idea, but we don't know which format, what, what, what, right? So how to make the most of an IP? What are the key learnings that you can share with the audience right now?

Mafalda Duarte:

Yeah, so for us in the game studio, we started when the film studio was going out of pre-production and starting their production process. So a lot of things were there, but also there was space to experiment and to go outside. So one of the first things is that we didn't want to look like or to be the film from the game directly, as you would see in the 90s on those types of film adaptations, but to build our own stories and to build up the universe. So one of the core things was to be able to reach different audiences.

To be able to have the film was for families, and so it had more of like this picture-like style. So we wanted to explore more of a hard direction that it could touch more audiences like Journey, Apsu and other games in that realm. So that was one of the things was like define different audiences that could potentially overlap. Again, always making sure that the IP universe would grow both in their audiences but also in their expressions and their storytelling.

Maite Woköck:

Yeah, and because we couldn't, we can't control all of the processes and when we have the financing ready, we also want to make sure that each project really stands alone, that you don't have to watch the movie to enjoy the game, you don't have to play the game, to watch the series. I mean, every project is an entry point into the story universe that ideally leads the audience and the players to all the other products or projects, but yeah, it's not, you don't have to do it in order to understand it.

AC Coppens:

Great. Now I would like to turn to Igor and dig into a little bit into these creative factors that we were evoking a little bit before. I would like to see from a creative perspective, or you see that video games is actually influencing the visual language in the film business, if you want to elaborate a little bit on this, please.

Igor Simic:

I spoke once with the Croatian filmmaker Lordan Zafranović, and he told me he's in his 80s, and he told me, you kids, you haven't figured out digital cinema yet. So he had the hunch that it required. requires a new aesthetic. And I think, for example, in festival films, that everything everywhere all at once was an example of a film that wouldn't have happened in a different time. Just the way of thinking that every time you make a choice, you didn't make a thousand other choices. It existed in philosophy, but in games it's palpable, you feel it. And also aesthetically, with the amount of CGI and VFX, and also on such a small budget to get that result. So I think it exists from there to productions like Poor Things, which used Unreal Engine. And I just wanted to touch upon this IP building. My advice is to follow a VC guy, you know, he knows where the money is, called Matthew ball. Oh yeah. Excellent. He's from the makers fund and he has three points in the example of Disney. So we don't have any more Metro Golden Meyer which was defined as the motion picture company. Rather, we have companies that own IPs. And he said three points telling stories, number one, number two, creating love for the stories via characters and number three, monetizing the love, which sounds very sinister. But, Those are the rules of the game.

AC Coppens:

I love that. I'm actually following him, but I would have loved to have him on the panel, too, you know. But anyway.

Igor Simic:

Let's make that happen.

AC Coppens:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Next year. Yeah, that would be quite something. For now, I'm going to leave the creative factor because I want to listen more about the technology, which is anyway, as you were saying, actually, you got greatly influencing also the visual language. Anyway, so, Christina, let's talk about the technology factor.

Christina Caspers:

I mean, I just wanted to add one sentence to what you said. We just experienced the love for a character at an international project where we're developing as a secondary vendor actually character, so we're not developing it in the first instance. But I just recently came back from LA and then the studio said, oh, it's so great. We love the character in this scene. So could you now enhance this love for the character for merchandising games and so on? If we would have known this before at the very beginning, we could have saved so much money when developing it in a different way because we didn't know that it was for more, more than only the feature. So there are many aspects to it, and especially when talking then about technology, if we would have known this, we probably would have combined earlier game engine and classic VFX, which we didn't do because we thought we only go one route. So that's it. But I would encourage exactly the creatives to take the holistic approach on an IP or on an idea way more earlier and also get like the VFX studios and the post-production and the pre-production into under one umbrella. And that would be amazing to move forward actually.

AC Coppens:

It's interesting. We're going to talk about business a little bit later on. But I mean, it's interesting to think like when you encourage the filmmakers to, you know, like, enlarge their vision at the very beginning and see all the possible IP exploitation, so to speak of a great idea. Would it be maybe more money to invest in something which is enabled later on than rather jewel or whatever that is? So is it a risk which is worth taking?

Christina Caspers:

Yes, I would say yes. I mean, we do. Of course. Okay. No, but it makes, but it makes, butatory, it makes totally sense. because we can't see a feature only as a feature. And we can do, but yes, if we want to monetize an idea, we need to see to the right and to the left, what's out there. What are we talking merchandising? Are we talking games? And our budgets, let's be clear, our budgets are getting smaller and we have to do these steps in order to survive. So yes, I would say it's needed. And therefore, one other thought is like, development funds that we're having, at least for Germany, I know they are quite not that extensive. If they would be able to increase, we would have also more chances to develop certain things at the very beginning of a movie or an idea.

AC Coppens:

What's your take on this, Igor, actually? I'm going to jump to the business directly, actually. Like the risk-taking, to envision something which is bigger that because you want this. And then, as we say in French, don't have bigger eyes than your stomach. In that case, bigger eyes than your money, portmone or something. So what do you think about that?

Igor Simic:

I think it depends. So I have a friend who became a millionaire at like 24. He made a game on his own. He didn't draw anything. He just programmed the game and bought assets for $100. It's a management of a tavern in the Middle Ages. Very simple. So he just nailed on a niche he knew people would engage with. So I think that's one approach. An approach that I'm doing, but that's my scatterbrain is doing everything. And that might pay off in the long run. The issue with that is companies are not attuned to this way of thinking yet. So unless you go to a VC who invests in a vision long term, then it totally makes sense. The reason it makes sense then is, let's say you're a musician. Every day there's 120,000 songs uploaded to Spotify. Spotify has a program called Perfect Content Fit, which is music that is either created by knockoffs or AI generated.

AC Coppens:

Yes.

Igor Simic:

And the criterion is it's good enough to be ignored, kind of like Emily in Paris. So it's content that just sits there so that you can do other things while it's going on. If you're competing with that, then you want to have your TikTok and a piece of the gaming, which is 250 billion annually now. so it's a giant industry, and you want to test it out. And then, so those are, I think, the two main approaches. And for the first time, I'll see now how it functions to invest directly in an IP in March, when I go and pitch someone else's IP. And so invite me next year to...

AC Coppens:

We get together with Matthew Ball, right? Yes. That's good.

Igor Simic:

Perfect.

AC Coppens:

Continuing to talk about the business and money side of seeing, and I'm turning now to Maite and Mafalda. What do you think is the best way for business sustainability? I'm not talking about a big deal, millions, and whatever, but just like navigating between the financing and distribution models to be, if I do some success metrics, to make a cut and something nice out of it. What are the best way to navigate this environment? What do you think? Who wants to take it best? Maite?

Mafalda Duarte:

Well, like, might have talked about more of the financing structures part, but I would just kind of jump into what you're saying, I agree and disagree with you. Because I disagree that bigger picture ideation needs to always be attached to just, I agree that it's a long vision thing, but that he needs to be attached to kind of. kind of big project thinking. In the sense, because on my end, like in an indie perspective, I do think that gives us a lot more flexibility, actually. We just released, like a shadow release for Christmas, a short game of like 10 minutes, just to do as a proof of concept, to check our audience, to see what they were saying, to start building up. And that was only possible because it was built upon all the development that we're doing for the bigger project. And from all of that world ideation that we're building and the characters that we established. So I also think that there's something there about the sustainability of the business side that if instead of editing your ideas out into this is the only one through pathway for the story that I'm telling, if you just use your ideas drawer as an explored potential. So I think that's also that element of looking at or the unexplored potential that you're leaving out behind and to catch it back in when the opportunity approaches. Because then you go and pick it up and it's like, okay, there's this new financing opportunity that maybe this thing that it didn't fit the film will fit in this interactive media and so forth. So I do see that as a path for sustainability in studios as well.

AC Coppens:

Maite you want to explore the financing part then.

Maite Woköck:

I mean, I think the initial idea why we said we want to create our own IPs is because I work a lot in family entertainment and when we finance these projects, we always get the question. So what brand is this based on? Because this is at least in Germany, but I think it's true for other countries in Europe as well. It's very common for a family audience to create something or to make a movie out of something that has already been created by someone else. And that was the initial idea. We've since then moved away from creating these story worlds only for a family audience. We also now have projects in development, in early development, that are for an older, a grown-up audience. So I think that's the business idea behind it, right, that we create our own brands with these IPs, and that we also reach out to publishers and to really build something ourselves. And the financing is very different in games and film and not so different. Both have, at least in Germany, funds that work a little bit the same. The financing of games, of course, is then different in the sense that you have to find a publisher, which I guess in film is then a RBC. Yeah. So it's more about the private money, at least in the German financing, than film.

Mafalda Duarte:

It's harder to do a game from start to finish only with public funding. You either self-finance or you do a lot of free labor or we do get private money.

AC Coppens:

So it's interesting because it seems to me that if I really want to explore all the possibilities for my IP, specifically in two silos between female and games, I mean, in our briefing, I was sitting to Igor, I listen everywhere like, film meets games, and games meet films, and it's convergence. And I'm like, very often I see two silos, and the whole industry is structured in silos. So what's interesting, what you said, my tell. So you need to speak also this vocabulary, to understand the financing structure, to understand the technology. And the technology is probably the one thing, which is more in between, right? But I would like to know from each of you, like what are the skills do, and in this case filmmakers, because we have a majority of filmmakers here, what do the skills of the filmmakers need to have to be able to better navigate this other industry?

Igor Simic:

For our stuff, we, for example, never pitched to VCs. This will be my first run. What we've done is we made deals with publishers where you have a revenue share model and they invest in the project but you don't sell any equity in the company. So that's just on the finance side. And it's a challenge. The silos are also interesting. So when I spoke to Netflix or Skydance these companies that have different departments, these departments don't talk to each other. For example, there was a Favro thing that was supposed to happen, and five years ago, I wanted to speak to Apple to connect, since we have the soundtrack, we have the game, we have animated content to connect Apple music, Apple Arcade, Apple TV, forget about it. I mean, they're not talking amongst themselves at all. they actually are not supposed to talk to each other.

Christina Caspers:

That's the point, actually. They have us, for example, in between, when there is under one huge umbrella different studios, and they're using a similar IP, then they go through a vendor to get the IP. Instead of they're sitting on the same lot, and they are not allowed to talk. This is incredible, but there must be budgetary reasons.

Igor Simic:

So the technology is allowing for something to go much more quickly, but the business is lagging, and then law is lagging, and then the state is in the 19th century.

AC Coppens:

Talking about the technology to go back there. So what are the skills? that you see from the more technological point of view, Christina, that they should get to be able to enter the game's game?

Christina Caspers:

I think we're not coming around to use game engines in the VFX industry too. So the classic VFX pipeline, as it has been starting from, starting Maya and you, Houdini whatsoever. Houdini, let's say, is a different approach that's still working quite well. But everything USD-based, because we need to exchange data, which is really needed. We can't just like see it. There is one vendor, one client, so we always have to collaborate with more studios. And then, especially when we're talking previous or post, we have to embrace game engines. Let's be it Unreal. Let's be it unity. Let's be it something like that. What I found, when it very comes to the pixel perfect international feature blurb, then we still need to go the classic VFX route because sometimes the game engines are not yet there to get the outcome that is needed for these. And this is nothing that I would ever see, but I was sitting in many reviews where there was just like, for me, it was all great, but there was just like a pixel that doesn't fit to the other pixels. And there we still need the classic VFX. But this is something for skills, I would say, we have to understand what's to the right and to the left and how are game engines working and how is the classic VFX working and how can we combine this? One last thing to the filmmakers that are, what skill is there needed? I would say don't limit yourself. Because this is what's the good with what the things that are coming up now. We can produce more cost efficient. So don't start writing and thinking for a budget, but rather think first, write a treatment. and then we see how we can fix it into or how we can make it work with the technology that is out there.

AC Coppens:

So tech follows the ideas. Exactly, exactly.

Christina Caspers:

And I think we're getting there that we can make bigger ideas happening with less budget. Excellent.

Mafalda Duarte:

I was going to say that not only tech follows the idea, but also in the idea process, that aspect of multidisciplinary and collaboration early on. Because again, I think if you think, I think that for different types, the same thing for us in games, right? If I think that I will make a film in the same way that I'll make a game, like everyone would be laughing at me. Like, of course you cannot just like come with like a high level thing and just start shooting and then go back. Like you need to define things early. Well, the same thing in the other way around, right? There is no script, like you just write your GED like super well and then you go and you make a game exactly as you first pitch it. Like it doesn't happen that way. So even I think that part of like the creative skills of like of thinking outside of the box of their own of their own structure.

AC Coppens:

Yeah. It's important too. So don't limit yourself. Yeah. Okay. I'm going to jump now to the audience because actually I'm interested not you, the audience of film and games. You will come later. I'm not finished yet. So no, I'm interested like how to reach out to new audiences. I mean, I'm thinking of your experience, obviously, but also how to use the distribution pipelines, how are they changing to integrate these evolving markets because we have all these technology coming, new ways to watch things and, et cetera. We had the streaming stuff coming 10 years ago or 15 years ago. I'm thinking of you, Igor, because you were saying you were trying to, with Apple, how difficult it was, but you're also working with Netflix, right?

Igor Simic:

So what happened was a company called Roga Games from San Diego, reached out to us. And then for three or four months, we thought they were crooks. And because they didn't say what's going on, they just said, don't sell the game to anyone else. And then finally, we realized it was Netflix games. That was the very nascent period of gaming for Netflix. Extremely clunky early on. They called that growing pains. And we developed the game in 15 months, which is insane. Yeah. That was a very difficult period because we were doing two games. So we worked like seven days a week all the time. That's the moment where also the company grew to 20 people. In terms of reaching an audience, I think it's on the one hand extremely saturated now. So there's so many games on scene as there are so many films at festivals can't weed through that all. And that's why you aim for different platforms. And also miracles I have a friend who had like a million views on TikTok for his game completely like no money whatsoever. So that's also a promising sign.

AC Coppens:

Okay. So going back to you, Maite and Mafalda, what is your experience to reach out to these audiences and make sure that everything that you have been actually elaborating can reach these different audiences? I mean, you said families, but I mean, there are like the kids and the, you know, like, different ages. You have also to convince the families, the parents have to come, obviously, etc. So how do you do that and how would you extend it to non-parents, no kids, and not the kids either?

Maite Woköck:

We have different target audiences for each project that we do, starting with the interactive storybook, which is for four-year-olds, and then with the feature film that is for a family audience with a core target. of 6 to 10 and then the game which is actually all age and not targeted at kids but more on to actually grown-up gamers early 20s and We still use very traditional distribution routes so each project is distributed the way that we always did it really and I think that this is something that we would like to to take a look at in the future which we at the moment, it wasn't possible for this project, but yeah, we have a publisher for the game. We have a distribution company for the feature film. And, of course, we try to connect all of these companies so that they know that we have other projects and that they use it during their marketing.

Mafalda Duarte:

I think the difference that, again, having a film studio brings to that process is only that even though the core distribution systems are still through old school, just like incorporating building communities to Discord servers for the game that would also be interested in this other media. And that direct contact that on the game part, we developed by going to festivals or to like direct events we're showcasing and that we're interacting with players. That is like the little diversion that we're bringing to this common distribution models on the film part.

Christina Caspers:

One point we're now doing, also for advertisement of a project, we're now doing a pop-off entertainment ride, where we say like, okay, in order to distribute this character or to make it more public, there will be from the studio side influencers invited. We have like a roller coaster ride. I can't go into more detail, I'm sorry. And then it's getting somehow immersive, and they get like a short clip after. words that then goes viral and then they could distribute it via their channel. So again, using a game engine after having finished a project in order to distribute this. And I think that's quite interesting when it gets interactive and when you have something that you can experience and talk about.

Igor Simic:

Yeah, I just wanted to mention that I think the main thing is it's blurring also who the audiences and who the makers are. And that's why Discord and Twitch are interesting. I know one of the companies that I'll talk to in LA, they invested in a Japanese company called PlayBrain, whose only job is hiring people to stream on Twitch and so forth. So the community building. And also, for example, in Minecraft, you have the size of Manhattan, King's Landing from Game of Thrones, which is created by creators. Roblox is the biggest game. You have Epic Studios working with individual creators to build levels in Fortnite. You have Travis Scott in Fortnite creating a concert. So that blurring is, I think, the future. In other words, what the German artist, Josef Boyce, dreamt of everyone being an artist, will happen in this world.

AC Coppens:

Okay. This is the perfect transition to my last question to each of you. I want in very few words, because I want to give some minutes to the audience, in very few words, talking about the future and embracing the changes. How will AI and new technologies, but large, maybe, will influence both industries?

Igor Simic:

Demagog Studio is not using AI. We are kind of doing it hand-painted, organic, etc., because it's our vibe. It will influence by speeding up things, and it's a great tool, but it's a tool.

Christina Caspers:

Agreed. It will not take away our jobs. We're using machine learning and AI-based tools, and it just takes off the boring repetitive work from the people, and then we can be more creative. Okay, so a tool also.

Maite Woköck:

I second that. This is also our approach that we don't use it for the creative work. We use it to do the mundane work in the studio. And this is really, for that, it's very useful.

AC Coppens:

Okay. Interesting, because you could also use it in a creative way, like a ping pong stuff to optimize the creative thing without talking about generative AI, taking the idea and etc. It's great to see that we are here in a good environment to look into the future. What is possible to enlarge your horizons?

And I hope you enjoyed this to explore your options from different levels. So let's dig into the future. See you soon. And that's a wrap for Level Up, bridging the worlds of gaming and filmmaking. A heartfelt thank you to our brilliant speakers, Igor Simic, Mafalda Duarte, Christina Caspers and Maite Wowöck for sharing their expertise on how these two creative worlds can inspire, challenge and enrich one another. And of course, thank you, dear listeners, for tuning in and being part of this journey. We hope today's discussion gave you fresh insights into storytelling, technology, and the future of collaboration across industries. This season of Industry Insights is co-funded by Creative Europe Media. Be sure to subscribe and help spread the world. world. You can find us wherever you get your podcasts and of course on the European Central Market website at www.efm-berlinale.com. Thanks again for listening. Until next time then. Goodbye.