00:00:00: JOHANNA: Welcome to Industry Insights, the EFM podcast presented by the European Film Market of the Berlinale. My name is Johanna Koljonen, I'm a media analyst and experienced designer based in Sweden. This season of Industry Insights - The EFM podcast puts a spotlight on highly topical and trend setting industry issues, creating a compass for the forthcoming film year. The year round podcast is produced in cooperation with Goethe Institut and co-funded by Creative Europe Media.

00:00:33: JOHANNA: Today we're discussing the co-production and financing of TV series. The TV drama boom of the last decade has allowed production markets across Europe and the world to really stretch their wings, proving that content, even in smaller languages, can travel on our smaller screens. Now of course that market has rapidly contracted, but the new confidence and the storytelling skills and film craftsmanship that it rests on, those are still around and Europe is not planning to stop making drama series for international audiences anytime soon. The importance of co-productions has been growing over time and in the current market it is absolutely key. How are the flows of funding shifting and how is co-production itself changing in the TV space? Traditionally it was a simple structure, really a way of making pre-sales. How are the co-production partnerships transforming when it comes to, for instance, creative collaboration? With me to discuss these issues and the roles and possibilities of producers today are Ankica Jurić Tilić, producer and CEO, Kinorama Croatia, and Marike Muselaers, head of international financing and co-production, Nordisk Film. Welcome to you both.

00:01:46: MARIKE: Thank you, happy to be here.

00:01:48: ANKICA: Hello, happy to be here, too.

00:01:50: JOHANNA: I'm so happy that both of you are here because you're both awesome, this is very exciting to me. Ankica, you're an award-winning co-producer of both films and TV series and I know you're also active at the EAVE in training producers for co-production, so you have also a wide European perspective. What are you seeing right now in how the sort of funding and co-production landscape is changing right now?

00:02:12: ANKICA: Well, I have to say that my background is actually in feature films. So when I started to develop some TV series that I felt are shaped for the wider market, my rational behind that, let’s go the way we do it in films. So the co-production that I have structured was basically made on the same business models as we do on films. It means that my co-production partners, I felt them as part of development process and we were exchanging ideas, thoughts. At the end of the day, we also signed the co-production contract that was the one from film adapted to television, you know, because there was no or at least none of us was aware of the possible ways how to structure the television co-production. So we actually used the film one as a base for the television one. And the exchange of the ideas of the talents and this creative energy was coming from four sides. So it felt like we are building something together. So it wasn't based on a presales or something because some of my partners raised the money early on, some at the very ending. So the whole process was a film-like process of development and of producing. And yes, I mean, for me, it's very natural coming from film, but what I see at nowadays market is that many film producers actually shifting to television because this is what audience wants us to produce and there are some stories that have to be told in six hours or five hours or eight hours compared to the film. So there is something natural coming from the entrepreneurs at the same time coming from the market. But I'm sure Marike knows much more about the market than I do, so...

00:04:10: JOHANNA: I love this idea of finding a pretty revolutionary way of working because it just seemed logical. That's really cool. At the same time, what you're saying is I think it's right that film producers are moving into this space, but it's also a bad time to do that kind of when the TV market is shrinking. Marike, what are you seeing? Of course, your purge heading international financing and co-production at Nordisk Film is based in Stockholm then now, but your previous position at Lumière was for Benelux where you were both distributing and co-producing series content. So again, another angle. What are you seeing?

00:04:48: MARIKE: What am I seeing? So yeah, indeed a little disclaimer: I only started at Nordisk Film Production two months ago. Well, two and a half months ago already now. So it's still quite fresh. And indeed before this I was in Benelux, but also co-producing a lot with the Nordics. What am I seeing? Yeah, I'm based in the Nordics and of course we are going through a little bit of a perfect storm right now when it comes to TV, when it comes to film as well I would say. We see that the budgets are decreasing. We see that some of the streamers are even not commissioning anymore at the moment. ViaPlay, for example. So it's not that easy at the moment to get your TV series commissioned, which makes, as you already said in your introduction, co-production so much more important. We really need to get out there now and become more international, become more European when it comes to creating TV series.

00:05:48: JOHANNA: You're saying we really need to do that. That suggests that maybe Sweden and the Nordics hasn't really had that tradition in the same way?

00:05:57: MARIKE: Well, let’s just say, I mean, I've been criticized for this, but I'm just going to say it again. I think the Nordics have been pretty spoiled. [JOHANNA: Fair enough.] I feel like as the outsider looking in for a long time I'm allowed to say that, especially when you look at other territories in Europe. I mean, in the Nordics we had the luxury of all the streamers commissioning local content in all countries. We had the luxury of a super healthy TV broadcasting business that all commissioned TV series. And on top of that, we had a local streamer, ViaPlay, that I think in the hey days commissioned 40 to 60 scripted titles. I mean, I would say that's being spoiled. That's a massive luxury when it comes to creating TV series. And yeah, now that bubble is bursting or it's a market correction, long story short, it’s fewer TV series being commissioned right now. Some of the broadcasters actually say fewer, but bigger. But in general, yeah, it's fewer definitely. There's a much lower volume and maybe we should also acknowledge that not all of those TV series were being watched anyway.

00:07:20: JOHANNA: No, not all of them were good. I think that's not just the Nordics. I think that's true in all the markets where we've had this explosion of TV series content because the production funds were available. It wasn't possible to have a good quality at that scale.

00:07:36: MARIKA: And also we were being pushed in that sense to squeeze into our development, to deliver yesterday. Of course that in the end will eat into the quality.

00:07:48: JOHANNA: But then that's pushed us into the sort of classic situation where we should only make the good series and then we have no problem.

00:07:54: MARIKA: I love this. This is my dream. This is my dream for a post bubble world that we cut out all the mediocre stuff and we only stay with the good stuff. Yes.

00:08:05: JOHANNA: Maybe we should look at some current project. Ankica, do you have in your mind like a current drama project that you could say something about like what kinds of financing sources you're working with, what's going on with some current project that you have as an example of how you're working right now?

00:08:22: ANKICA: Well, I do have one that I'm co-developing with a Slovenian partner who is actually the creator of the project. And it's a two-lateral co-production that we are working on and the development, co-development is financed by MEDIA. And the way we see the future is to have the Croatian national television on board hopefully in one year, Serbian national television and Slovenian commercial television. And we also want to approach Eurimages fund September 24. It would be great to catch the Media TV programming, very beautiful fund that helps especially for us coming from little markets and small countries because there are very few possibilities of financing on our territories. So MEDIA and Eurimages are of, it's like a sweet dream to have them on board. So this is the way we see it. We are still, let's say not at the very beginning of the development, but at the end of the first third, I would say, but this is how we see it for the future.

00:09:36: JOHANNA: What about you, Marika?

00:09:37: MARIKA: Well, can I just add to that, that I think we have to thank the golden age of television for indeed bringing more funding into Europe and that we now finally indeed have the pilot program for Eurimage. Creative Europe, of course, has been there, but also now more for development support, for example. And when you indeed look at Eastern European, Central Eastern European territories where it wasn't always so easy to tap into development funding, even get your first financing from a broadcaster, et cetera, I think that's going to make a massive change. Unfortunately, none of the Nordic countries right now have signed for Eurimages. So this is a question for actually doing that. But it's definitely something that we do have the golden age of television to thank for, I think.

00:10:27: JOHANNA: Do you have a current project where you could say something about how it's funded?

00:10:31: MARIKA: Yeah, this is when the “I just started at Nordic Film” thing comes in. I don't have a project that I can actually name right now, but I can maybe walk you through the process of how we finance. Because we do indeed always look for that first hump in our own territories. So we go to the broadcasters. Unfortunately, at the moment, also the broadcasters, they're decreasing their budgets. So I need to, after getting my first hump of commissioning financing, I need to really get out there and find, for example, combine a Norwegian broadcaster with a German broadcaster, then tap into soft money or tech shelter money somewhere else in another territory and piece the puzzle together. So in that sense, it’s not so different from what Ankica is mentioning now.

00:10:28: JOHANNA: Yeah, of course, Nordic Film is already a pan-Scandinavian company. So in a way, you have access to a few local markets in that sense. What about you, Ankica? Do you have some formalized structure with your neighboring countries that you’re working through, or is it personal relationships entirely?

00:11:46: ANKICA: No, no, it is personal relationships. There is no structure and some countries are more into this co-producing and for some, this kind of collaboration on TV project is an exception. But I think that the biggest difference that I see at the moment from what Marike said is, for me, it is almost impossible to get the pre-sales in the phase of financing. It has to do with a small language, small market, but also it has to do with my company structure because being from the film world to have a network in the television world, it's a challenge. [MARIKE: Yeah, that's right.] Because over the years while producing films, you develop a very strong network and you know all the sales. You travel the markets, you see the same people. And then you build your network and you know, oh, okay, this project is for this sales, this project might get a green light at this sales. But with TV world, I find it really challenging and I really try to learn a lot about this market. But this market is changing much faster than the film one. People are changing. They're shifting from one company to the other from one position to the other. So from my point of view, it is impossible to build a network. I felt like a rookie all the time in this market. So yeah, I find it challenging for these two reasons. One is the small language, small market that I'm coming from. The other one is actually my incompetence to do this thing because I’m from something similar but not the same.

00:13:27: MARIKE: And do you then team up with sales agents? Like are you actively looking for TV sales agents now because they can help you with your network?

00:13:34: ANKICA: Yeah, that's my biggest challenge, how to reach them, how to get the interest, how to get them to trust me. Because this is something that I see difficulties in building, this trust with the sales agents and the people from the market, which I do have in film thanks to the previous career.

00:13:56: JOHANNA: That's interesting. I'm realizing of course that's true. And actually many of our listeners of course are in very different positions of seniority in the market. So I think others might also be in the same position as you, Ankica, or they might be literally rookies. They might be just starting out with their first production companies or in the beginning of their careers. What would you, are there some places or events or networks that you have found actually useful in the TV drama space, either of you, that you could recommend?

00:14:24: ANKICA: Well definitely, when I started to develop my first TV series, Co-Production, my first destination was Series Mania and that was great. But literally I spent like 40 meetings only learning. That was my aim. The project was in early phase. So actually I was booking meetings just to learn how does this market work. And then Berlin is also a great place and there are some smaller markets like the one in Dubrovnik, NEM, and then in Sarajevo as well. They have TV drama as well within CineLink. So I was traveling the markets and trying to fetch partners for my project. But primarily in the first year I was learning about the market. That was my way.

00:15:09: JOHANNA: That's smart. Yeah. What would you say, Marike?

00:15:12: MARIKE: I mean, I agree. It’s indeed the series markets, the film festivals that now have TV series sections. In that sense, I think Berlinale moving away the TV section from Zoopalast back to Potsdamer Platz is a really good idea because as TV people in Berlin, we were kind of in the same bubble the whole time and we didn't really get to the real film festival. So I think that's important, especially indeed for people coming from the film industry that really need to learn about the TV industry, that these festivals merge their film and TV offer in that sense. But I think what I just mentioned, you need to network, you need to talk. I think distributors or sales agents are always the best ones to talk to when it comes to learning about the TV series industry in Europe because they're willing to share your network, they're willing to help you with resources. And of course, incubators, training programs. Midpoint obviously comes to mind in Central Eastern Europe, but there are so many other TV series incubators, training programs that can help you with your network. EWA now, EAVE, Ace, et cetera. [ANKICA: Torino.] Yeah, Torino, thank you.

00:16:32: JOHANNA: Yeah, this is interesting actually because there's something, yes, okay, so clearly if you come from a different background or if you’re green, you may not have an existing network and that trust is such a key word because you kind of can only earn, you earn that, you have to earn trust, you can't just get it. And then that takes a relationship and that takes time and that means you have to work together. So you're kind of in a sort of until you get that first project or the first relationship with someone, it is very difficult clearly. But at the same time, I feel like you're bringing, well, I mean, clearly I can say you're bringing a different way of working. And it seems that that might also be supported in some way or maybe I don't know if you agree with some of these new structures we have like the Eurimage funding for instance, and also we have these new co-commissioning partnerships where different broadcasters are grouping up both on the commercial and the public side to fund things together. Do you think that, or how do you think that that will change this, like how co-production actually works? Will it go in this more creative direction, creative collaboration direction that Ankica was describing?

00:17:38: ANKICA: Yeah, I really hope so because there is a lot of new energy that we can bring. I mean, when I say we, I’m thinking about the talents that are raised and that have a career in a film world because there is something that we can bring that is maybe a bit different and fresh and interesting and conventional. For example, me as a producer, I really never plan to do like a few seasons of the TV series, 12 episodes. For me, it is this thing. If I see the story that needs five hours, as I've said before, then I go for TV series and then I enter the world. So it's not like, okay, I'm preparing a new project. It would fit this television, this editor, and I'm proposing three seasons of something. That's not the way for me. It's like with the films. You see the stories, you feel the talents and then you start structuring the production and the format. So yeah, maybe I'm a little bit atypical because I don't see my future. I'm shifting to television because the film is not being seen enough or appreciated enough or whatever. For me, it's only about the stories that I want to tell with my authors that I work with.

00:19:00: MARIKE: Yeah, I think that's indeed a good point. There's a difference in the TV series industry market between the, to be a little bit blunt, feature films cut up into pieces, the mini series, the event series, et cetera, and the longer running series, the ones indeed that introduce characters that you want to spend time with season after season after season after season. And I think also when it comes to financing, those two are quite different. Indeed, the mini series might have the more creative co-producers on board, might be very focused on talent. Whilst the long running series, yeah, there you have a relationship with a broadcaster and hopefully a few others that you need to keep on maintaining, maintaining, maintaining season after season because you want them to keep coming back. So that is in general more of a local approach, I would say.

00:19:57: JOHANNA: How do you see the possibilities for independent producers in the TV space? Because it is a difficult environment in part because of what you're saying, Marike, that if you're making these huge productions, you need a certain kind of volume and that will eat up, especially if you're a relatively small company or a very small company, it will eat up all of your resources for like, that would be five years maybe of your career, you're working on that one project.

00:20:22: MARIKE: It's also recurrent revenue, so.

00:20:24: JOHANNA: Well, on the other hand, yes, absolutely. But is it possible as an independent producer to build something in TV drama today in Europe?

00:20:31: MARIKE: Yes, it is, as long as you indeed have your network in place and as long as you're able to diversify your offer. I think what's really risky nowadays is to just bet on one or two streamers that you can just produce your TV series for. I think, unfortunately, at least in Western Europe, those days are over. Of course, when you look at countries like Romania that are only starting there, where Netflix is only starting to commission now, there might still be a bit of a growth market even in Central Eastern Europe, which I think is fantastic. It's also why I think we need to co-produce more with Central Eastern Europe. But I mean, I'm not going to lie, it is becoming more difficult for independent producers, definitely, yeah.

00:21:18: ANKICA: Yes, and the thing you've said, Marike, at the beginning, that it looks like it will be fewer but bigger companies. So it means the small companies are really endangered by the new environment. But also to be endangered is something that we are already used to. So it is just a different challenge that we need to adapt to. But it was always challenging.

00:21:40: MARIKE: Yeah, I mean, we’ve been through a few of these, haven't we?

00:21:44: ANKICA: Yes, yes. So we shouldn't be pessimistic about it. It's just a different challenge, but we are used to challenges anyway.

00:21:52: MARIKE: But it's about teaming up more, definitely. It's just like you say, Johanna, with the broadcasters teaming up in different countries, the production companies, the independent producers, and that’s already happening with certain initiatives, the production companies should team up much more as well in order to be able to provide TV series for those initiatives, etc.

00:22:14: JOHANNA: If you're taking a TV series to a market, and I mean, if you're taking a film to a market and you’re presenting a project and you’re saying from a stage, for instance, you're looking for co-producers, in film that means other production companies, but in TV, who does that? Like then you’re often looking for broadcasters.

00:22:32: MARIKE: Broadcasters, streamers, distributors, so that’s the same as in film. It's different deal terms in general, but definitely an important partner as well.

00:22:41: JOHANNA: That's at least the old default. But I'm thinking, I mean, there are also these other kinds of, I mean, Lumière, where you were working, was a distributor who got into co-producing. We have sales companies that are coming in. So in a way, now in the TV space, if you stand up and say you’re looking for co-producers, it could actually be any kind of partner as well. But we're not quite used to thinking like that yet.

00:23:05: MARIKE: And in general, so that's why I always say co-financer to start with. And then eventually in the process, we indeed figure out if this is an actual co-production where we come and spend money in a certain country or we shoot somewhere else. There is creative involvement. We bring talent in from other countries, but you start indeed with finding co-financers. And a co- financer could also be a broadcaster that essentially just brings you a deal and like a pre-buy. At the same time, I don't think we should just say that a pre-buy doesn't count as a creative involvement because often these constructions, these deals, the broadcaster actually does bring in valuable feedback and gives you notes that are extremely important for us, et cetera. So it's not just a pre-buy, not always.

00:23:55: JOHANNA: This is exciting. Maybe it’s like we can really see that the way we are building this project is shifting. And of course we know that 10 years from now, we're going to have very different paths to market and there are very different kinds of platforms already like when fiction is coming into the sort of more direct to consumer, like between the creators and consumers, maybe we will see people making drama series directly for YouTube and having no middleman and so on. And then suddenly having the skillset coming from a small language market where we are used to making content for relatively or very little money is actually like a superpower. Then you can, without compromising on quality, you can build completely different business models. We're not quite there yet, but it's like we can just see it arriving on the horizon somehow. But if we’re looking at the slightly closer future, maybe three years ahead or five years ahead, how do you think that our work, your work in TV will be changing? Ankica, say if we start with you.

00:24:52: ANKICA: I think the co-productions will get a bit more structured and I think initiatives like Eurimage will contribute to that because we will, you know, you get the set of the rules, it’s already there. So you try to implement it in different countries and in different models. MEDIA already said some years ago. And so I think that will be helpful because there is a structure that you can follow and it's the structure that was based after the thorough research. So it's a great tool. So this kind of model we can follow, for example, in East European countries, in Scandinavia, you know, whatever. You can just copy the same model. If it works, it will work for any three-somes, four-somes, whatever kind of combination we can build in Europe. So I see this as a beautiful sign of the future, but some problems, of course, will continue to become bigger and bigger, such as insecurity of the collaborations with streamers, national televisions going down and things like that. But yeah, I think the co-producing is a win-win. So I think it will be more and more used as a production model in Europe.

00:26:15: JOHANNA: Fantastic. Ankica, do you think you will be making more TV or less TV five years from now?

00:26:19: ANKICA: Well, it depends on the stories that I find on the road. Yes.

00:26:23: JOHANNA: Okay, what about you, Marike? What's the future looking like?

00:26:26: MARIKE: We will definitely be doing more TV because that's also one of the reasons I joined Nordic Film. And by the way, Ankica, I'm in the same position as you, but on the other way around, because I am suddenly back in film now, so I need to rebuild that web network. And I haven't been in that space for a while. So in that sense, we all need each other. I think that, well, you know what my dream is? My dream is that we won't do all the mediocre content anymore and only produce really good stories. I think, and we're seeing that already, that there will be a lot more flexible formats when it comes to financing. The streamers are all at the moment, or at least in the Nordics, going back to producing local, local, local. Global is an upside. We might take it, we might not take it, and you can just be flexible and go outside and finance the rest of the world yourself. So we'll see more of that. And indeed, the international alliances between the broadcasters. I really, really hope that we'll see more of those, that more of the broadcasters will join the new aid or we'll see other initiatives where they co-commission even more. And I would love to see that bridge between the West and the East. And yes, indeed, the more international alliances.

00:27:50: JOHANNA: And I think there's something that strikes me now that you say that, that this creates an exciting moment for television with these new alliances on all sides of the, I mean, there was a time when a certain type of commissioning talent went to work for the streamers because that was very exciting. Now I think you could work for a public broadcaster. That kind of a person could work for a public broadcaster and get to be involved in really exciting projects both big and small. So that’s also a shift in the market in a way that will affect us. So Ankica, when you were moving into this field of television, probably you were surprised by some things because things are different. So what were some expectations of you or of the project that you weren't prepared for maybe?

00:28:35: ANKICA: Maybe this money talk, you know, because when we talk about the films, it’s always like this passion and this and that, and we love it and it's important and it has social relevance, it will travel the world. But when you talk with the television, it's more about money, you know, how much, you know, what can we, how can we profit on this? Which is the best slot, you know, how can we make it work in a commercial way? Can it be sold and things like that… So money talk is much closer in this TV World. I mean, you need to think more about that than when you do the film, to my experience.

00:29:13: JOHANNA: But maybe that's also good, right? Because I mean, one aspect of it is that, I mean, we talk about money, but another way of thinking about it, money represents the audience, right? So maybe on the film side, on the art house side in particular, we haven’t been trained in thinking about that either. So maybe it's a benefit even though it can feel awful as well.

00:29:36: MARIKE: No, but I think, I think you’re right, it's really important to, okay, yes, the business model, of course you need to think about that, but indeed, target audience, when you, when you go to a broadcaster, if you have already done your homework on target audience, that's a massive head start. And yeah, and especially in European film, we’re not so used to do that. The other thing I would say is so different is for when you pitch TV series, you're almost never pitching to the right person straight away. Like you need to pitch to one person that will then present it to someone else, that will then pitch it onwards to someone else. So in a way, you always have to help them pitch to their colleagues. In that sense, the decision making process is a lot more complicated.

00:30:21: JOHANNA: That's actually a weird structure. It feels like, you know, those people, those organizations could be working on that to making it easier for everybody. Yeah.Okay, we’re running out of time, but finally, if somebody’s listening and they are developing a project for TV right now, now of course we need to make a distinction what kind of project it is. Let's say that it's, it's TV, but it's probably just one season. But they don't know yet. Possibly option for more, but it can work absolutely as an independent season. What would be your advice at this time?

00:30:55: MARIKE: Well, first of all, I think it’s really good that you say it's one season, but there’s an option for another one because you always need to make that first season first. When people come to me and say, yeah, no, and I have ideas for five seasons, et cetera. Fantastic. Great. But let's make that first one. Shall we? I would say, don’t give up. Start indeed looking for the incubators, the programs that we already talked about. I think that will be a really good starting point to develop the project further. Depending on where you're from, there are multiple training programs available. Also use all the tools that are out there. We haven’t even touched on artificial intelligence and everything that is there, but there are so many possibilities now that will help you develop it further. Networking is key. Go to indeed all these markets, all these festivals and start connecting with everyone.

00:31:56: JOHANNA: Come to Berlin and talk to everybody.

00:31:58: MARIKE: Exactly. It's so simple, but it's true. It’s a peoples business just like the film business. We all like to work with people that we like. It’s indeed a trust business. You need to start working on developing those relationships.

00:32:15: JOHANNA: Ankica, so what would be your tip to somebody who's developing a TV project right now?

00:32:20: ANKICA: Just the same one as Marike said, and I would also say think about how to cross the border. Think about the wider audiences. Think about the profit that you can get from your colleagues from different territories and their input. Think about working in a group because Europe is, let's say, the same cultural field, but within there are so many differences. Use these differences as a tool and try to get to the wider audiences. That's for me. You are so certain when you are developing that you had a jewel, so you want this jewel to travel. You want to see, you want your work to travel the countries, to be seen by as many people as possible. Try to think about that from the very beginning. That would be my advice.

00:33:09: MARIKE: And try to communicate with that wider audience from the very beginning as well. There are so many possibilities to do that, either through a podcast or indeed through social media. There's so many ways that you can test your idea already and that will help you.

00:33:28: JOHANNA: And work creatively, not just with co-producers, but with the audience as well. [MARIKE: Exactly.] That's fantastic. Thank you. Great advice from you both. And thank you so much for taking the time, Ankica and Marike.

00:33:38: ANKICA: Thank you.

00:33:38: MARIKE: Thank you so much, Johanna.

00:33:40: JOHANNA: This season of Industry Insights has been produced in cooperation with Goethe Institut and co-funded by Creative Europe Media. This episode was developed in partnership with the Berlinale Co-Production Market. Please do tune in to future episodes of Industry Insights. Find us wherever you get your podcasts and on the website of the European Film Market. That's www.efm- berlinale.de. Thanks for tuning in. Goodbye.