00:00:00: NADIA: Welcome to Industry Insights - The EFM Podcast presented by the European Film Market of the Berlinale. My name is Nadia Denton. I'm a curator and impact producer based in London. This season of Industry Insights -The EFM Podcast, puts trendsetting industry issues in focus, creating a compass for the forthcoming film season. The year-round podcast is produced in cooperation with Goethe Institute and co-funded by Creative Europe Media.

00:00:26: NADIA: Today I will be joined by a number of guests with which I will explore subscription models for cinema. Subscriptions, known also as unlimited passes, not only offer audiences a wider selection of big screen viewing choices, but they also build film communities. In discussion with experts from the industry, I will interrogate the extent to which subscription models can help the industry to build loyal audiences and increased admissions. [00:00:54] NADIA: Lennart Schneider specializes in subscription models and newsletter strategies. He is also the host of the podcast Subscribe Now, in which he interviews managers from the world's leading subscription companies. Lennart, can you give us an overview of the subscription economy, sharing key trends listeners should be aware of?

00:01:12: LENNART: Hi Nadia. In general, I would say that the subscription economy has been one of the biggest trends in the economy over the past, I would say, 10 years. Originally, for example, newspapers and magazines have always had this model, but especially software companies have switched their business models to subscriptions. And you can see that now there are many products that you originally purchased in a one time purchase are now subscription models like there is this company, where you can rent a bike and you're always sure to have a functioning bike and you don't have to care for anything. [00:01:52] LENNART: There's also a subscription model around fitness. There's obviously the streaming market. And yeah, this has been a huge shift in the economy. And I think the reason for that is quite obvious. Subscriptions provide a sustainable business model with predictable revenues. So you can already see now how much revenue you will make in half a year or a year, which offers the opportunity to make more long term investment decisions.[00:02:21] LENNART: And since you asked for trends, I think one of the most important trends is that in the beginning, most companies have focused mainly on acquisition of new customers. And now that growth becomes a little bit harder and the acquisition costs are rising. Many of those companies are focusing more on retention and engagement of their existing subscribers and also in regaining subscribers that have cancelled before. And in general, one other trend is more flexibility. For example, in the fitness market, there have been a lot of models which were quite unflexible. You have to subscribe for one year and you couldn't cancel before. And there are many companies which are introducing more flexible models now.

00:03:12: NADIA: Thank you. So you've spoken about predictable revenues for companies. And you've also mentioned the increased flexibility for customers and audiences. Can you tell us a bit more about some of the other value adds for film watchers and viewers?

00:03:28: LENNART: So in general, I would say that you have already made the payment upfront. So in most cases, it's a flat rate model. So you don't have to pay each time you use something, which makes it quite easy for the user. And also, I think that this model aligns the interest of the user and the producer or the provider of the subscription. Because when you buy something and you're not satisfied with it, you won't return or you won't stay within the subscription. So customer satisfaction is one of the most important metrics of a subscription model. And I think that's one of the biggest advantages because it's more about the relationship and not only about a one-time purchase.

00:04:18: NADIA: That's super. And on that point of the customer satisfaction, do we think that this subscription model has fostered a new generation of cinephiles?

00:04:29: LENNART: I would hope so. I mean, here in Germany, there are not that many subscription models in the cinema space so far. But as far as I've read into the models from the Netherlands and Austria, that is really a chance to attract younger audiences to get people into movies that they would not usually buy a ticket for, because the risk of going to one movie is much lower. So when you have to spend 10 or 15 euros per visit per movie, then you consider which movies you watch and you only watch movies that you've heard a lot about or that critics and the mainstream media have blotted. So I think the chances to go to movies that are a little more artsy or independent are high.

00:05:21: NADIA: That's a really good example. And clearly a win-win for distributors and exhibitors. Are there any other ways in which it's been beneficial for their business models?

00:05:32: LENNART: I think one of the most important parts is that you switch the dynamics from a push to a pull market, because usually people had to search for movies. So they first had to have the idea ‘I want to go to a movie next week’, then they had to go to Google or wherever, look for movies that are in theaters and then decide to go. Which leads to a market where people do it quite rarely. And one of the benefits of subscription models is that you have this direct relationship with the consumer and you can push new movies. You can make recommendations, you can send them emails, you can recommend movies within the app. So it's really the chance to attract people to things they wouldn't otherwise consider.

00:06:22: NADIA: And in what ways has this contributed towards the building of communities?

00:06:26: LENNART: I think movie going has always been a social experience. And this is something that, especially after COVID, many people are looking forward to doing more. And in this case, if I have friends with a subscription, it's very easy to make an appointment, to go together to the movies and to have shared experiences. And in this case, I also like the features that Cineville and others offer, like viewings and special events and recommendations within the app. So you can see what other people liked, you can see which movies are popular nowadays. So it's really a platform that fosters this discussion around movies and that attracts people with a shared interest, a shared goal, a shared love for movies.

00:07:25: NADIA: And it sounds like the use of those apps is probably also enhancing the experience overall for audiences, which clearly is another value add.

00:07:34: LENNART: Yes. I mean, there have been apps like Letterbox and others where you could communicate about movies and rate movies. And I like the idea to have it all integrated within the subscription. So you have access to the movies and watch lists and ratings and social features like that. And also it is a chance for cinemas or for the providers of the subscription to use those social factors to have a built-in kind of virality for the subscription. Because when you go together with a friend to the movies and your friend sees that you don't have to pay for the entry, then it is really likely that you convince them to buy the subscriptions themselves. In startups, this is called product-led growth. And many of the big software companies have grown this way because they have loyal fans, not only subscribers, but really fans that create word of mouth, that recommend your service to others and that drive your marketing without you having to spend a lot of money.

00:08:43: NADIA: That's really informative. Thank you very much, Lennart.

00:08:46: LENNART: Thank you.

00:08:48: NADIA: I am now joined by Thomas Hosman, the co-founder and CEO of Cineville in the Netherlands, and Lysann Windisch, the director of distribution at MUBI GO. They will share insights on the benefits and key aspects of the subscription business.

00:09:03: NADIA: Lysann, for MUBI, what have been the learnings from cinema-going subscribers and their online-only experience and has it added subscribers?

00:09:11: LYSANN: I mean, of course, that's our hope. That's also a big investment for us. I think what we try to do with MUBI GO is really bridging both worlds because we really see that the theatrical experience can also complement the streaming experience. And our users definitely want to experience also films on the big screen. I think the focus in our subscription model is really about the curatorship. Similarly, as we do on the platform, we also choose one film per week that we want our members to see on the big screen. So I think that's probably the main difference towards a general subscription model for cinemas because our users can only really watch this film that has been picked by us and that we think is definitely worth experiencing in the cinema.

00:10:11: NADIA: And Thomas, what has been your experience with Cineville? Have you found that subscription has added subscribers?

00:10:17: THOMAS: Yes, totally. I think Lennart explained it quite well. We saw all the results that he was talking about. We saw as well with Cineville. We started Cineville 2009 more or less as a branding or a marketing tool for Arthouse Cinema and for the independent cinemas in Amsterdam. And over time, we came to see it more and more as the tool that Lennart explained. It's been a tool to connect the most loyal visitors of the cinemas in Amsterdam and in the Netherlands to the cinemas themselves. And yeah, I think we've seen different results. So we think Cineville attracts a younger audience than the regular cinema visitors of the cinemas. We've increased the number of visits to the cinemas. We did a research study that showed that on average a Cineville member increases their frequency of going to the movies with 50 percent. And also for me personally, one of the best results of Cineville, one of the best outcomes is that Cineville members take more risks. So they experiment more, go to different types of films, go to specials, go to events. And I compared sometimes to like a music festival. So you visit a music festival, maybe from one or maybe one or two bands that you already know. And then while you're there, you can visit all these other types of bands or DJs or performances. And it completely takes away the risk of watching something you wouldn't like. So it's more you're trying out different types of films. And yeah, we clearly see that in the results.

00:11:49: NADIA: And you've mentioned the fact that Cineville is quite popular with younger audiences. I understand this is the 18 to 25 demographic. Is that right?

00:11:58: THOMAS: Yes, that's right. Maybe 18 to 35. So our biggest group of members is around 25 years old. And yeah, this is much younger than traditionally the Arthouse cinemas, their visitors were. So yeah, it's much younger. I think also maybe a bit more diverse. On the same hand, we also have older subscribers. It's interesting to see that when we started in the Netherlands, we only had the younger age group. And then over time, the older visitors also came to buy a subscription. And we see the same trend also in Belgium, where we launched last year. So at the moment, I think the average age in Belgium of Cineville members is around 24, 25. And we expect that over time also older visitors will buy a subscription and also use the subscriptions as a way to go to different times of films and different times of genres that they would normally go to.

00:12:56: NADIA: And what do you think has been the key ingredient in terms of this audience increase? Could it be linked to the fact of choosing riskier titles?

00:13:04: THOAMS: I think, like Lennart also said, going to the cinema is a social experience. So I think for me, the most interesting part is that the subscription still, it still is itself and it's, we're still growing. We see that a lot of the subscribers first came to the cinemas by introduction by one of their friends, for example, and they started coming maybe once or twice a year. And then over time, they go more often, they buy a subscription and then they bring their friends as well. And that's how the subscription and the number of visits to the cinema still increases over time. And I think, yeah, like I said, because it's so easy now to just any moment during the week, you have some time off just to go on our app and select one of the, I don't know, maybe 50 screenings that are around in Amsterdam and just walk in without having to pay anything. You can scan your cards when entering the cinema and it's a really frictionless experience and that makes it so much easier. And also if you don't like a movie, you can just walk out and visit another one in the same day. And it's also something we see, for example, is that a lot of people are now going to the cinema by themselves just on a Wednesday morning. You have a couple of hours and visit a movie and just try something new.

00:14:24: NADIA: That's wonderful. And Lysann, I wondered if you could share with us any changes you've observed in terms of demographics that have now engaged across the MUBI GO?

00:14:34: LYSANN: Well, I think traditionally we also cater to a much younger audience, like already with the platform and with our marketing. But what we realized is exactly what Thomas was saying also, that now we see also older audiences joining or trying out MUBI GO, which is interesting. And I just wanted to follow up on the point of lower risk of trying something different. Which I think at the moment we really see the tendency in the cinema that only a few tent pole titles pick up at the box office. And I think subscriptions models like Cineville or MUBI GO really encourage the users to just take the risk and try something out because it's within, or actually there is no commercial risk, so to say. That's how also, I mean, not only by the frequency of movie going that this is raised, but also seeing maybe more challenging titles. I mean, it really opens up the horizon and the willingness to experience something different. I guess other benefits are also, yeah, that they bring new people to the cinema, that like these people also buy concessions in the cinema. So there is an additional income for exhibitors as well. And I think for me, these kinds of models, they resonate much more to the general behavior, like consumer behavior nowadays. And I think it's beneficial for everyone. It's like a win-win for distributors, for exhibitors, and I guess like, yeah, for the office of these services as well.

00:16:08: NADIA: That's really positive. And presumably it's gone towards strengthening audience perceptions about the movie brand and their engagement across the various offerings that you have, because I know that in addition to the online platform, there's also a magazine and so on.

00:16:23: LYSANN: Exactly. For us, it's really about added value to the subscription. And that ideally helps us to retain the people. But I think people are really so far, I mean, we have, this had been going on since 2018 already in the UK. So quite a while, it's very, very established subscription model. And in Germany, where it's quite a new development. So we just launched last year and we still make a lot of learnings, but we also, we already see how it's speaking up and word of mouth is created more in the cities where we are live.

00:16:58: NADIA: Thank you very much. Wouter Timmermans, a film programmer from De FilmHallen in Amsterdam, and Adriënne van den Berg, the sales manager from CineArt Amsterdam, join us to discuss their audience engagement strategies. Adriënne, we've been talking so far about this shift with audience interest and deeper engagement. Can you share with us some of the ways that you and your colleagues have been communicating with audiences and driving participation?

00:17:25: ADRIËNNE: Yeah, sure. I can. I can surely confirm what Thomas was saying, that people are taking, seem to take more risk in choosing their films. For instance, we released Mulholland Drive of David Lynch, The Restoration in 4K last year, and another film, which is a bit more niche, The Eternal Daughter. These are films that are quite hard for audiences to go to. And our feeling is that Cineville really helps to get people to take more risk. So more than 50% of the ticket sales of these two films were Cineville passholders. So that is very interesting. And next to that, I think what's really interesting about Cineville is that it's a past that, yeah, the win-win situation I heard more people saying this, but it really feels that way because it's also quite transparent in the way we are collaborating. One example of this, it's called the specialte, which is like a sort of special, we're going to do that soon. The idea is that Cineville is doing an event in 12 theaters all around the country, and they all get to take one person for free. So it creates awareness to get a subscription. But also for us, it's a way for theaters to give more attention to a film at an early stage. And for us, it's a good way to introduce a film. So I think that's quite a concrete example of how we are doing this together and how we can increase the whole film market, actually.

00:19:00: NADIA: And Wouter, what has your experience been with de FilmHallen?

00:19:04: WOUTER: So our experience has been really good with Cineville. It's one of our most important partners, and it's actually our main, our most important target audience that we cater. So for us, it all starts with Cineville being a very good deal, to be honest. It has to be a good deal because you have to separate the people that come in for once a month or once a year and give them a good deal to come to visit your cinema or the cinemas in Amsterdam in general more often. So we cater them with a very broad range of films. What Adriënne already said, we all play those films. We also do Killers of the Flower Moon, for example, Past Lives, Letzter Abend, which is a very small German film, which has done pretty good for the size that that film is actually. And by offering that range of films, we try to, what Thomas also already said, broaden the taste of the Cinevillepassholders. And they also take people with them to our cinema again, and then it just adds up like a snowball, for example. But when people come more often, you also have to give them something more than just a broad range of films. Adriënne already talked about the Cineville Specialte, which is a very good tool. It's a special evening for cardholders, but they can take one person for free. But we also have scene programs for our cinemas. So for Film Model, for example, we have a fast forward program. That's just a pre-screening of a film, but we add like a program to it. And we really cater to the Cineville pass holders to go and see that, because it really adds something special to what normally would be a regular film. And even Cineville pass holders that come more often, even more often, we try to offer them more depth with special programs, retrospectives, and festivals that we are currently having right now, actually, to even create more choice for them. Because in the end, the pass stays strong when there's a lot of choice, and a lot of cinemas, a lot of choice. So yeah, that's our experience with the card now.

00:21:05: NADIA: And I'm sure it must be quite heartening as a programmer to be able to introduce some, dare I say it, riskier titles to audiences that maybe before would have been more difficult to engage around this. Can you share what future plans might be around these trends in terms of the fact that audiences are more open with regards to the curation experience?

00:21:27: WOUTER: Well, I think that cinema has always been curated in that sense. And I think what we did at de FilmHallen, for example, it's quite a big cinema with nine screens, but they're all very small. So they're not big screens. They're around 75 seats per screen. And what that creates is then you can create that diversity. And it's very important for us that the distributors keep giving us these great films so we can program them and still keep that choice. So I think the communal experience, being in the cinema with your friends, watching a film, plus the broad choice of films, that we still keep pushing that actually. And I think that's still the best way to go.

00:22:10: NADIA: Lovely. And Adriënne, can you share with us instances where you have been getting feedback from audiences? I presume you were able to look at some of the data that you're getting from the apps to make choices around curation. But has there been anything more direct or specific that you've had from audiences that's really helped to inform some of your choices around curation? So for instance, do you have any instances where there have been surveys or particular types of events where you've been able to get more nuanced feedback to help make decisions about, okay, we're going to show this or that particular type of title? Has it mainly been driven by the data that's come through?

00:22:51: ADRIËNNE: I think it's more the data that we gain. I mean, for us as a distributor, we do a lot from gut feeling and it's really hard to measure where choices are based on. But because of data sharing from Cineville… it's not that specific, but we get more of an idea how it works and how people make their choices. And by reading that and interpreting that, we are making our choices a bit more specific.

00:23:21: NADIA: Thank you. So I'd now like to broaden the conversation out to all of our guests. And one of the things that I really want to further interrogate is this whole point about data and some of the learnings that we have had or yourselves and colleagues have had that you previously didn't have access to as a result of the data.

00:23:41: LYSANN: So maybe if I can just pick up on this, I would like to ask Wouter actually how, if that's relevant, if you look on the numbers every week and how this would affect (of Cineville users) and then how this affects your programming for the week.

00:23:59: WOUTER: So yes, of course, that's very important. But we also, for every screening when you come by in our cinema, you get an email to the Survey and we also get data from that. So I also have like every week we get, I get a whole list for all the cinemas with all the comments that everybody emailed us. And we also use that kind of information to curate the program.

00:24:21: NADIA: Thank you Wouter. Lennart, I wondered if you had any particular sharings, especially in the context of your specialism around newsletters.

00:24:30: LENNART: Well, in general, data is the goal of every subscription model. So to understand usage behaviors is one of the most important points. And one thing that other subscription providers have told me is that you can recognize patterns in this user behavior, like people who like this movie also like this movie. And then you can make programming like double features or combinations of different types of movies. And one point that especially the urban sports club told me is that the variety of usage is very important for such subscription models. So if people only go to one cinema and watch one type of movies, then they might not be as loyal as people who go to different cinemas and watch different movies. So those are patterns that are most important for subscription providers, as well as engagement scoring. So most providers have a score, which tells them if people are losing interest, and when they are not going to a cinema in one month, then you have to engage them, you have to send them reactivation campaigns to increase their usage. Because as far as I could tell, most of the subscriptions are valuable if you go to a movie at least 2.5 times a month, that is the breaking point of these models. So if people are below this, this number, then you might have a problem and you have to reactivate those.

00:26:01: THOMAS: I think I can maybe add something about how we share data with the cinemas and the distributors because, yeah, we as a subscription, you collect a lot of data. And as Adriënne mentioned, we completely share our numbers transparently with all the cinemas and distributors involved. But we're just at the beginning. So right now we have a dashboard where cinemas can log into and also some distributors to see what kind of people have visited their movies the night before, for example, where there is a system in the Netherlands that shows how many people have come to your movie, but it's now, I think, for the first time that a lot of distributors, for example, can also see what kind of people, where they come from, what age. And this is something, like I said, we're at the beginning of the whole, what's possible, I guess, because we have a lot more data and I think we can show cinemas and distributors more, give them more insight into the whole process of releasing a trailer to actually a film being released in the cinema. For example, when we publish a trailer on our website, our subscribers can put it on their watchlist, recommend it to friends, so we can show that data before the film is actually released in the cinema. Maybe distributors of cinemas can adapt their marketing strategy based on that. But also we ask people for a rating after they have seen the movie and maybe there's a discrepancy between the one group that is going to the movie and another group that is actually liking the movie. So you can also adapt your marketing strategy based on the actual feedback of the users. And what's interesting to me also is that we are now operating on an international level and we can also share this data between the different countries. For example, movies may be released earlier in Belgium than in the Netherlands and we can learn from the results in Belgium before a movie is actually coming out in the Netherlands and help distributors and cinemas adapt their marketing strategy based on the data. Of course, in addition to their own gut feeling and intuition, which is also always important when it comes to cinema.

00:28:06: LENNART: One question to that, if I may. Do you also offer marketing services to the distributors? So is there an opportunity for a distributor to pay you to target specific audiences which might like your movie to create word of mouth or things like that?

00:28:22: THOMAS: No, at the moment we don't. We did some advertisers on our website before where distributors could pay and get their film in front of a specific audience. But it also, I think it's gotten away of the relationship between the subscription and the member because I think we try to stay a bit independent in terms of we have a content team that's highlighting and curating the films that are shown. And if it's become one like advertised, curated website, then I think it changes something in the relationship between us and the subscribers. So we are a bit careful by letting distributors getting into contact directly with the subscribers. Also for cinemas, for example, there are now 15 cinemas in Amsterdam and of course, every cinema wants to communicate directly with all the subscribers in Amsterdam, but then they would receive 15 different communication messages. Cineville is also a way of collaborating as cinemas and distributors and combining our marketing efforts through the channel of Cineville. So yeah, we're a bit hesitant to share our data and also personal data to connect distributors and visitors.

00:29:32: LENNART: I can totally understand that. Thank you.

00:29:35: NADIA: Yeah, thank you very honestly. And on that point of the collaboration between cinemas in the Netherlands, how would you say that this has changed the communication between the cinemas and has it largely been a positive impact? Because it's difficult at times when you have venues that previously may have been in competition with one another.

00:29:54: THOMAS: It is difficult. Yes, it's Cineville is not an easy model because we have 70 cinemas collaborating in actually the cinemas themselves are the owners of the concept Cineville in the Netherlands. So they have the Cineville Association and basically they hire me and my colleagues to do this for them. But these 70 cinemas are very different. We have subsidized cinemas, we have more commercial cinemas, we have cinemas that only screen maybe one or two movies per week. So yeah, there's a lot of talks going on all the time to make sure we are keeping everyone on board. And I think what helps in this regard is that we try to keep it as simple as possible. So cinemas are now collaborating and also distributors for Cineville, but there are many other aspects where they're still competing in a sense, for example, still attracting their audience and also catering to a specific audience. So it has helped that cinemas are talking to each other about Cineville, are in the same room and discussing marketing efforts. But it hasn't changed the way cinemas collaborate or compete completely. No, that's still happening, of course.

00:31:05: NADIA: Thank you. Wouter and or Adriënne, I wondered if in terms of all what's been discussed, whether you've seen a shift in subscribers seeing more films than non-subscribers?

00:31:17: WOUTER: Yeah, that's a simple question. Yeah, of course, people that have a … they just watch more, they get more enthusiastic about films. It's so much easier for them to do that. And what we also did what he also was talking about what we do is with email marketing. Besides Cineville, of course, is that we kind of make our target audience, for example, for Royal Opera, that's a live show we do. We also email them for films that they might be interested in later. So but you can do that with all kinds of topics. So that's also something we do. And you already see that the people respond very well to that and that they tend to get loads more films from the cinema.

00:31:58: ADRIËNNE: Yeah, I think from the consumer's perspective, I would like to add something. I think it's very interesting that the approach how to consume films changes if you have a subscription that that's probably Lennart probably knows more about this, the whole psychology behind the idea of unlimited access. I see around me, I see a lot of film clubs, for instance, and they're rising everywhere. And they're like, okay, so next Wednesday, we're going to the movies anyhow, and then we're going to pick a film instead of we're gonna, we want to see this film and we go here or what shall we do? Go to show me go out for dinner or shall we go to the theater or whatever. So the whole approach changes, I think. And that also creates Yeah, then we get back to the whole diversity of film consuming, I guess.

00:32:46: NADIA: Wonderful. Thank you very much. So I wonderd if we had any other final comments before we wrap up?

00:32:52: LENNART: I would have a question to the round. And is there too much usage in some cases? So do you have to limit access for some of the heavy users? Because I've spoken to the German CEO of Bookbeat, which is an audiobook platform, and they had the problem that they have to pay licensing fees to the publishers for every time somebody listens to an audiobook. And in the beginning, they had an unlimited package, but they had to limit it. And now they have two stages. One is for regular users where you can listen up to 20 hours per month. And one is for the extreme users where you can listen up to 100 hours per month. Because if you don't limit it, you run the risk of losing money with some of your subscribers. How do you handle this problem?

00:33:44: LYSANN: I think we can see the same with urban sports, right? They are restricting at the moment, like really on a big level. I mean, obviously, every subscription you model like no subscription model works with only heavy users. So at some point, you need to balance it out with people who use it a bit less frequently, and then people use it really extensively. So I think it's an investment in the future. But I guess Thomas also knows it takes a while. It's a long way, and you need to believe that at some point, it just also makes economical sense. And if you don't have trust in that, then I guess we all wouldn't be here or talk about all the benefits of subscription models. But at least we really believe that it's an added value and it helps to retain people. Like, yeah, Wonderful Bee, for example.

00:34:38: NADIA: That's great. I really take away that whole point about having trust in the model and the patterns.

00:34:44: THOMAS: Maybe I can add something from Cineville. We definitely lose a lot of money on some of our users. We have users going daily, actually, to the cinema, especially in Amsterdam. And these are people the cinemas personally know, and they just come in every day. But for us, it's been always been very important that unlimited is really unlimited. And it's not unlimited up till 10 movies a month, for example, because I think if you start putting limits on the subscription, it also takes away the feeling of unlimited and giving you all the options. And it actually creates a barrier because they have to think about, okay, I only have like five visits left this month, so I have to choose carefully now. So yeah, over time, I think because we are still growing and we see that the people that are now joining Cineville have a different behavior than the people that bought Cineville in the beginning. And it's, yeah, it's having some trust that the people that will buy the subscription in the beginning might actually go five times a month and you lose money on these. But they are the most loyal visitors and they are also the ones that bring in their friends and increase the subscription over time. So actually, these are the most important members in terms of marketing and creating these film groups and inviting their friends. So yeah, that's why we also in our marketing, we focus on people getting as often as possible to the movies. For example, we had this challenge where we asked a couple of people to go as often to the movies, watch as many movies in one day in the cinemas. And they started at nine in the morning on a Saturday and they watched maybe seven films or six films at the 12 o'clock screening and the night ending. We do this also because we know it's very difficult to change the behavior of people. So we just push as much as possible to go to the films as much as possible. And in the end, it balances itself out with the 75,000 subscribers we have. So yeah, no limits for our subscription.

00:36:46: LENNART: Thank you.

00:36:46: NADIA: That's excellent. Thank you for being so honest with us. It's really fascinating to kind of hear about the inner workings and all of the quirks of the audience engagement. [00:36:56] NADIA: So this brings us to the end of the podcast. I'm very delighted to have had this conversation with our guests and looking forward to seeing what the future trends will be around subscription. Thank you.

00:37:07: EVERYONE: Thank you. Thank you.

00:37:10: NADIA: This season of Industry Insights has been produced in cooperation with the Goethe-Institut and co-founded by Creative Europe Media. This particular episode has been developed in partnership with film executive Vera Herchenbach. Please do tune in to future episodes of Industry Insights. Find us where you get your podcasts or on the website of the European film market www.efm-berlinale.de. Thank you for listening. Take care and goodbye.