00:00:05: JOHANNA: Welcome to Industry Insights, a podcast for by and about the film industry, from the Berlinales European Film Market, produced in cooperation with Goethe-Institut and co-funded by Creative Europe MEDIA.

00:00:17: Today's episode was developed in partnership with the World Cinema Fund and my name is Johanna Koljonen, I'm a media analyst, strategic consultant, and experienced designer based in Sweden.

00:00:28: Today's topic is audience development strategy, a way of approaching how to connect an audiovisual work with its potential audiences.

00:00:28: Now of course we as an industry have always done that, but the growing size and complexity of the content markets and all the things that are competing for audience attention today have made it more necessary to structure these approaches and to apply them in a systematic way.

00:00:53: So during this last decade, as the need for audience development strategy has grown, the methodology has also developed into both a strategic approach, and the practical toolbox for creating audience awareness and audience engagement, and maybe especially to do so from a very early stage of development through collaboration across historical industry silos and through active listening to the story, to stakeholders, and to audiences.

00:01:22: And ideally this process would also be dynamic and even playful in a way that makes the work of communicating your film as creatively rewarding as the work of making it. With me today to share their experiences are two award winning film producers with deep practical experience in audience strategy.

00:01:22: That's Paola Wink from Brazil's Vulcana Cinema and Valeria Richter, who literally wrote the book on this topic.

00:01:48: But first I'd like to welcome Isona Admettla-Font from the Berlinale World Cinema Fund. When Isona and I spoke before she described Audience Development Strategy as an engagement and seduction. And I love that. Because Engagement and Seduction, that’s at the heart of all storytelling and therefore something we as an industry could be great at and should be great at. Isona, Welcome to the show.

00:02:12: ISONA: Thank you Johanna for this great introduction.

00:02:13: JOHANNA: And maybe we should just start with you telling us briefly about what the World Cinema Fund is in case people don't know.

00:02:20: ISONA: Well the World Cinema Fund is the funding institution of the Berlinale. It was born in 2004 and since then we managed to support the production and the distribution of more than 200 films from regions where there is weak industry, due to economic and/or political reasons. The regions we are focused in are Latin America and the Caribbean, Africa, the Middle East, Caucasian Region, Central Asia, Southeast Asia, the Pacific and for the Word Cinema Fund Europe Program we also added Ukraine, Moldavia, and Belarus. And we are focused on film production support and film distribution and also post production.

00:02:20: And since a couple of years we started a program of audience strategy connection really, with the idea to help filmmakers from these regions who have even more difficulties to access the,

00:02:20: market channels to have the opportunity to show their films and that they reach their potential reaching the audiences they are meant to.

00:03:37: JOHANNA: So this is interesting because I think your title is coordinator, but I know that you are also among other things, an audience design consultant. So in practice like in the actual day-to-day work of the fund, how do audience design and audience development strategy fit into that?

00:03:54: ISONA: Well, to start with just to explain that I'm not Filmmaker, I'm sociologist and cultural manager. And maybe this is the seed for this passion because coordinating the World Cinema Fund, I have yearly access to like 400 projects from these regions where there is an amazing talent, amazing topics, amazing visions.

00:04:19: And somehow we had the feeling that we are not doing enough for these films to be seen for these films to… and that was really the first seed. And that's when we heard about the work done by the Torino Film Lab who are also friends, colleagues and and cooperators. And what was the really the small start for what’s been going on in the past 2-3 years.

00:04:19: It was during pandemic time, but in the shadows, we were doing all this work of making pilot projects, starting coorporations with local institutions from these regions and starting to give shape to this World Cinema Fund audience strategy on the road.

00:05:03: JOHANNA: So audience strategy on the road as I understand it, it's yeah, it's a kind of road show. You take these workshops to...

00:05:11: Let's see if I remember this. I don't have it in front of me.

00:05:11: I know you've been in Ouagadougou, I think you've been in Locarno, you've been somewhere in Brazil…

00:05:19: ISONA: In Cuba as well in collaboration with Nuevas Miradas and expanding also this initiative. But the idea is to give energy to this transfer of knowledge route, this communication. Sharing this methodology, sharing this toolbox with filmmakers from this region so they are able to apply it to their own projects and to bring into their own value change or working processes.

00:05:48: JOHANNA: I also know that you give out some awards for excellence in audience design, which is actually such a smart way to focus attention on this, on this field.

00:05:59: ISONA: It's about working with one project, but as an example to share this methodology.

00:05:59: So it's a kind of win-win situation also for us because in this process we are learning a lot.

00:05:59: We are also waving new relationships and another kind of way of working together, which is one of the slogans of the World Cinema Fund.

00:06:23: JOHANNA: Yeah. So later in this podcast we're going to go much deeper into how this work is actually done. But I did want to ask you specifically about who these audiences are to you.

00:06:23: So is it… we're talking about cinema audiences or audiences throughout the lifetime of the work.

00:06:36: ISONA: We understand audiences in the in the greatest thing for us. Audiences are all the relations established for a project throughout the whole process. We consider audiences not only the person who is going to buy the ticket to go to the cinema, who is going to click to watch the film on a virtual platform. We also considered in this process all B2B audiences from the industry fundings, investors, programmers, markets.

00:06:36: Also the way to share the process, the project sorry, through the dossier and through the pitch.

00:06:36: Those are we understand that they belong to the same system and to the same strategy.

00:06:36: So we think in audiences in the based scene of the concept.

00:07:29: JOHANNA: That's super interesting because of course, yeah. I mean especially I think funders and other gatekeepers are such important audiences to niche work to that you have to pass through first to get to the other stages.

00:07:29: Thank you ever so much Isona, you will stick around for the conversation and I will invite you back at the very end of the podcast for reflections and for some information, some exciting information I feel about the World Cinema Foundation distribution funding.

00:07:29: But now it's time to introduce our next two guests. First Valeria Richter, who is a creative producer and scriptwriter who develops, writes, coaches and consults internationally. She has produced features and documentaries through her own companies, Pebble and the Nordic Factory Copenhagen. She showruns a TV-Show in collaboration with finish production company Bufo. She's currently involved with a holistic script development program called New Nordic Narratives,

00:07:29: which she has co-developed and of course she is also a highly respected teacher and indeed head of studies at the Torino Film Lab. And the Torino Film Lab is the context that's provided the most structure for her thinking and learning about audience design. And in 2018 she co-authored the Torino Film Lab book Audience Design – An Introduction. Valeria, welcome to the show.

00:08:44: VALERIA: Thank you so very, very much for having me. I'm very happy to be here.

00:08:48: JOHANNA: Thank you for being here!

00:08:48: And here today is also Paola Wink, film producer and co-founder in 2018 of Vulcana Cinema which is focused on art house films, first features and co-productions and the international market.

00:08:48: I should perhaps mention this is a Brazilian company. Throughout Paolas career, films that she has produced have been screened for instance in Berlin and Cannes, including last year when El Empleado y El Patrón was in the Quinzaines at Cannes. And this year Swing and Sway was screened at Sheffield DocFest. And it opened Olhar de Cinema, which is the international Film festival in Curitiba in Brazil. Paolo's work of course, represents a kind of film that is increasingly squeezed in the media landscape, but it seems from the outside that her attitude just is that then you have to do more work. And in fact her audience designed for the film Casa no Campo who recently won a World Cinema Foundation Award, this film, I think the international title is A House in the Country was also just presented as a work in progress in San Sebastian. Welcome to the show Paola.

00:09:52: PAOLA: Thank you, Johanna. You're introducing me better than myself.

00:09:52: Thank you very much. Thank you Isona for the invitation to be here. It's a pleasure to share thoughts with you about audience design.

00:10:06: JOHANNA: Well, let's start with the word then. So in this conversation, I think we're going to use the terms audience development, audience design, audience strategy and different combinations of this quite interchangeably. And I think we could talk for an hour just about the nuances of these different terms. But using whichever words you prefer, how would you define or describe what audience design strategy means for you? Valeria?

00:10:33: VALERIA: Yes, audience design for me is like this umbrella thing now, where it can be audience engagement, it can be audience awareness, audience strategy, all of that can be underneath that umbrella for me. It's very much about the idea that we need to think about our audiences in order to anticipate them. And I just came from the world conference for screenwriters and of course there screenwriters, some have frustrations about writing for the market and that's not what this is. This is writing what it is you want to write. But with an audience in mind. In order to empower yourself in a way to also, to… jokingly, you can say: to get better dressed to make better decisions further down the line when you start meeting sales agents and PR people and marketing people and distributors and so on.

00:11:34: JOHANNA: So you're not writing it for the market, but you're writing which is a commercial kind of evaluation. You're writing it for audiences who may be very uncommercial indeed.

00:11:45: VALERIA: Yes, it's because it's because screenwriters and directors sometimes feel like that it would interfere with their story. So it's not that audience design tells you how to tell your story.

00:11:45: It asks you to consider what are the goals you want to achieve with your story?

00:11:45: Who do you want to engage with? Who do you want to, who are you writing it for?

00:11:45: Like who would you love to sit and engage with your film and to start getting an idea about that.

00:11:45: So, I'm thinking that's where we work with these audience personas for example, and to understand I really want a female audience, but then you realize I actually don't have one female character or the one female character I have. You know, it's a bad example, but it's sometimes these things actually do happen in our labs.

00:12:30: JOHANNA: Yeah. What about you, Paola? What does it mean for you?

00:12:33: PAOLA: Well for me, it's one more step of filmmaking. Like the other ones we have like developing, financing, script writing… So it's an important one. And it's also a tool, a creative tool, an inventive tool that can join and bring the team of writers, directors, producers, co-producers, together. Like to put them in the same film, to have the same goals, to build the strategy, how to reach the goals of the project, of the writer, director's idea.

00:12:33: How can you find the place? How can you find the right partners? So for me, it's like an important tool in a creative process to help build and make the film.

00:13:24: JOHANNA: For me, who has a deep background in experienced design, the fact the word design there is so important because it means you test and you try and you learn and you develop and it's very, so it's very clearly to me, like a creative process. You don't do this on an excel sheet, you do this on a whiteboard and you do this, you know, with creative tools first.

00:13:46: VALERIA: With post-it notes.

00:13:47: JOHANNA: Yes, exactly, exactly.

00:13:47: So looking back at your careers, when did you realize that audience strategy was part of your job? Paola, for instance, as a producer.

00:13:59: PAOLA: Well, not in the very beginning. Maybe when I was doing my second feature film.

00:13:59: There I started to think about that. And later on when we won the World Cinema Fund Audience Design Award was the time that I was really able to think what it is to design an audience strategy and how it is to do it and how good it can be, how pleasant and fun. That’s when.

00:14:29: JOHANNA: I'm going to ask you later, by the way about the audience design for your latest film. But what about you Valeria? How did this get into your life?

00:14:36: VALERIA: Well, it was sort of following the time where transmedia was this big thing. And it came out of the fact also that I think there was a period around 2010/11 where, it was getting harder to get sales agents, harder to get minimum guarantees, to, you know, find producers, sorry, distributors up front. And so we started to think that especially the Arthouse films that were very much the films that were in Torino Film Lab at that time, that they would need to start thinking about an audience in order to sort of bridge at least content and mentally to bridge that road towards the audience and sort of consider their relevance. And I think you're also in the Nostradamus, I hear you talk about relevance all the time and I think it's something we really need to ask ourselves. So it's … we're artists, and we're storytellers, but we don't do it in a vacuum.

00:14:36: And there is a financial side to everything. So obviously we need to consider who are we making it for?

00:15:44: JOHANNA: I should explain to the listeners: the Nostradamus report, is this sort of industry report that I released annually, but we've also been around for about 10 years and you're right, at the beginning it was so much about thinking about the audience was at the heart of all of the problems in a way. And I wanted to say that like we have solved this problem in the last 10 years, but I'm not sure we have. I mean after you had already worked for I think eight years developing these concepts in Torino, then you did write a handbook and this, so that was maybe around 2018, right? (VALERIA: Yes). Yes, and the handbook is available as a free download. I think it's great, but like would… has your thinking changed, would you still recommend it?

00:16:23: VALERIA: Yes, I think the first half which was more like taking the temperature and sort of motivating why we did it, is less relevant now, because obviously with every year the market changes, so you can kind of skip the first half and just go to part two, which is more of a list of tools. Like Paola was just saying about setting goals. And I think actually today, what is really close to my heart, is how thinking about, and I think what Paola said confirms this also, it's a tool, it's something to play with, to empower yourself and the team, to get different gazes on your project. Like what if this type of audience, what if this type of audience, it sort of shines different lights on your story, which can help the story development as well, but it's also playing into the whole sustainability that we're grappling with now with the Green shooting and so on. It opens up for better preproduction for better planning for how to prioritize your resources better. And also to make sure that you have the materials that you need for the promotion. So that you make the best use of your preproduction, production, post production, and get materials for the marketing through that by having thought about it beforehand.

00:17:39: JOHANNA: That's, actually, you refer now quite casually on this, something that felt super important to be there at the beginning, which is about I think a lot of creatives are a little bit scared of this, because, I mean, I certainly still hear pitches when I'm on pitch juries, where you ask who is this for, and they say ‘oh everybody’ or ‘all adults’, you know, and it's not for everybody, but they're afraid perhaps to say a specific target audience, because then it feels like you're excluding everybody else. But this process can also be about identifying target audiences that you couldn't even imagine. Finding, as you said, more perspectives on the work.

00:18:18: VALERIA: Yeah, I think it is very interesting to hear powerless experience of this.

00:18:23: JOHANNA: Well, yes, for sure. For instance, do you have that concern, Paola, that targeting films will exclude some audiences?

00:18:33: PAOLA: No, I don't feel like that. I feel it’s a way to reach the potential audience of the film because it's impossible that the film is for everybody. I don't think that would be a possibility. Even the huge blockbusters, I don't believe they are for everybody.

00:18:33: And I don't feel it's excluding. I feel it's defining. And I agree that sometimes writers are afraid

00:18:33: of defining the audience and they think you are trying to niche to like to make, make them write to some kind of audience in mind. But it's not that at all. It's like to try to find which audience will engage with the story the writers want to tell. And sometimes, yes, you can push the script further towards the audience you want to reach. But it's not like an obligation or something that you do just for the market.

00:19:34: JOHANNA: I think if we had a time traveller now or somebody in the film industry who has been in a coma for 15 years and they wake up and listen to this conversation, they would think, why is she talking to producers? Isn't this a sales and distribution problem?

00:19:34: And I think… I mean to me it's kind of obvious why you have, why this is already in pre-production, this needs to be there. But how would you answer that question? Why shouldn't, why can't just sales and distribution take care of all this?

00:20:05: VALERIA: It's too late.

00:20:06: JOHANNA: Too late in the process?

00:20:07: VALERIA: And I also think it's about taking responsibility for what we're putting out there. It's cool that we have our artistic processes, but we also… Right now the system that we're working in also demands us to pitch our projects to get money for example. And then we have to go into the pitch format which is selling our project, and already there. And also when we make applications more and more funds ask us to have audience strategies, marketing strategies, green strategies.

And it feels like this burden in a way for the financing like: ‘oh God, we have to fill in another application and they're asking us all these things’. So, I think what I've come to since 2018 is to really start looking at it and I'm so happy when Paola says that it can be a great tool that can open up things. So it should be an asset, that we can see how can we make these things assets for our project that we have an idea about an audience. It makes us also make better decisions. If we don't have unlimited resources and unlimited budgets, we need to make choices all the time. So the more that we can become more precise about the vision we have for the film, the goals that we want to achieve on a personal level, for our careers, for the project, what should the project achieve that

And it feels like this burden in a way for the financing like: we know? Okay, we want festival and we want to sell a lot of tickets or, it can be qualitative goals or quantitative goals. But also to extend that, to think about the goals for the audience, like, and for society, like we have impact as storytellers, what we make can make a difference. And so we're putting things out there and we have a responsibility to consider what that is.

And it feels like this burden in a way for the financing like: And I think the audience and the society plays in there and the next step for sustainability, would then to think, how does all of this fit into the planet? Like, you know, the planet we're on, what impact are we making? What footprint are we leaving behind with this story that we're telling?

And it feels like this burden in a way for the financing like: So do we want to make a change that you just want to have fun and make money and that's fine.

And it feels like this burden in a way for the financing like: There's no judgment. But just that we have become more aware of what it is we're doing.

And it feels like this burden in a way for the financing like: JOHANNA: So it seems clear to me that this process needs to be owned, probably by the producers. But who should create the audience strategy in your opinion? Paola, who needs to be involved in designing the strategy?

And it feels like this burden in a way for the financing like: PAOLA: Well, for me, the producer mainly. And with the director and the writer, I think it's important for them to participate and give input. Not to be so lonely for the producer to be doing this alone. And usually films from Latin America Arthouse films will not have a sales agent attached in the project in the script based phase. So the producer will be alone on this journey. So it's important that the director and writer are open to the process and want to contribute.

And it feels like this burden in a way for the financing like: VALERIA: I think that's a very important point that you're saying because I've also heard from other producers that sometimes they can be a very lonely job actually and that's also not sustainable, like, we want, you know, to have independent producers and we want to make them feel that they don't want to kill themselves over doing a job that they actually love.

And it feels like this burden in a way for the financing like: So it's also about, yeah, I think supporting… to create structures where we feel supported. And also if we know why, it helps build together. I think also for the team, the why we're doing this and why are we sacrificing this or why are we choosing this or prioritizing in this way?

And it feels like this burden in a way for the financing like: So everyone gets more on the same page in a way. But the strategy is like a living document.

And it feels like this burden in a way for the financing like: So it starts out and then as you move along, it develops because then suddenly you get a new location or you get a new co-producing partner and then you update your strategy, and eventually you start having conversations with maybe a sells agent or a publicist or local distributor and then they become involved in the conversation as well.

But you're more sure about certain things like what you want or don't want your story or your project to be or to do or to signal. And so you can sort of get more to the core of things when you start having a discussion with the distributor. And the thing as well is: distributors, they’re also very busy people. They cannot dedicate all their time to your project. So the better you are prepared and already maybe have some ideas about your priorities, the more you can get out of that time you do have with your distributor.

But you're more sure about certain things like what you want or don't want your story or your project to be or to do or to signal. And so you can sort of get more to the core of things when you start having a discussion with the distributor. And the thing as well is: JOHANNA: And maybe it's also a tool to find the right distributor. If you're, you know, and like in in both directions, the right project for that specific distributor, if you have a similar idea of what it is. As you're speaking, I'm also thinking I'm quite involved in public funding in different contexts and one of the big questions in the funding world of course is if we lose our money, if we loose well as for instance, so dramatically has happened in brazil relatively recently, how can we help when we don't when production funding isn't necessarily available as a tool for the same in the same way?

But you're more sure about certain things like what you want or don't want your story or your project to be or to do or to signal. And so you can sort of get more to the core of things when you start having a discussion with the distributor. And the thing as well is: And then we're talking a lot about capacity building and knowledge support and maybe one thing that many funds could support with would be, yeah, like being, being that partner that allows the producer to not be so alone in the audience design process.

But you're more sure about certain things like what you want or don't want your story or your project to be or to do or to signal. And so you can sort of get more to the core of things when you start having a discussion with the distributor. And the thing as well is: But of course, again, it requires the correct people in the correct positions, but that could be helpful.

But you're more sure about certain things like what you want or don't want your story or your project to be or to do or to signal. And so you can sort of get more to the core of things when you start having a discussion with the distributor. And the thing as well is: VALERIA: Yeah, I think that’s… It was just a quick thought that I think there are a lot of new professions coming out in that way, like the intimacy consultants (JOHANNA: Yes!) or the eco consultants or green shooting consultants. And it's the same: We used to think, I don't know how many years ago, but a script consultant was not a natural thing. And then it became like you could put it in the budget for a media application to have a script editor, story editor and now it's like the audience designer or the outreach producer or, you know, all these different titles that are swimming out there. But it's also people that sort of, you hire them for a limited time and then they go about their thing and then they come back in. So these two kind of know that there are people out there who are very interested in working with this.

But you're more sure about certain things like what you want or don't want your story or your project to be or to do or to signal. And so you can sort of get more to the core of things when you start having a discussion with the distributor. And the thing as well is: JOHANNA: Yeah. I was gonna ask Paola, if we tried to be a little bit more hands on, could you describe your thought process or your design process around, for instance, Casa no campo since it's a recent example. I should say it's a film by Davi Pretto who you've worked with since the beginning of your career. But how did you, how did you do the audience design?

But you're more sure about certain things like what you want or don't want your story or your project to be or to do or to signal. And so you can sort of get more to the core of things when you start having a discussion with the distributor. And the thing as well is: PAOLA: Actually when we won the World Cinema Fund Price for audience design with Isona, we were in late stage of development of the project. So we were still working on the script but it was really advanced and we already had financing in place. We already had two co-producers attached one from France and the other one from Argentina. And it was a very good timing because at the point I was not thinking actually audience design and then we won the price and we started to work with Isona and with Gundula also that was with us in the process. And it was really intense like a week work. I think it was four encounters of three hours that we really dive in in this story.

But you're more sure about certain things like what you want or don't want your story or your project to be or to do or to signal. And so you can sort of get more to the core of things when you start having a discussion with the distributor. And the thing as well is: And we brain stormed together and started to build this world of Casa No Campus and all the feelings and all the care of the story. And it was really nice because we were able to bring the co-producer from France together in the discussion. So it was really quality time together, you know, because otherwise we wouldn't have like 12 hours discussion about that with the co-producers, you know? So it was really intense and I think very good like to even improve the script I guess.

But you're more sure about certain things like what you want or don't want your story or your project to be or to do or to signal. And so you can sort of get more to the core of things when you start having a discussion with the distributor. And the thing as well is: JOHANNA: So yeah, even if you just had sat down and talked in a structured way for 12 hours about the project that in itself would have been very useful. But now I guess you produced something, did you produce a strategy document? Like how did it change? What did you make for you?

But you're more sure about certain things like what you want or don't want your story or your project to be or to do or to signal. And so you can sort of get more to the core of things when you start having a discussion with the distributor. And the thing as well is: PAOLA: So this… actually we work in a MURAL, it's like a program that was really a different world that we create many layers for the film in this like panel with post-its and things.

But you're more sure about certain things like what you want or don't want your story or your project to be or to do or to signal. And so you can sort of get more to the core of things when you start having a discussion with the distributor. And the thing as well is: JOHANNA: MURAL is like an online whiteboard software. So you created like a big digital whiteboard.

But you're more sure about certain things like what you want or don't want your story or your project to be or to do or to signal. And so you can sort of get more to the core of things when you start having a discussion with the distributor. And the thing as well is: PAOLA: Exactly. And from that we've had a 40 page, 47 page document with all the findings that we achieved by doing this brainstorm. So it was really amazing for me to like build this together and have this documents which I never have done for any films that I’ve made. And it's really an ongoing tool because after we did that, I often come back to the document and see the things we planned, where the film should go. Where should I finance it? Where should I like put the film in a working progress after shooting? Which partners, which sales agent to contact? Everything was there. We had many findings.

But you're more sure about certain things like what you want or don't want your story or your project to be or to do or to signal. And so you can sort of get more to the core of things when you start having a discussion with the distributor. And the thing as well is: JOHANNA: That’s fantastic! So it sounds like you're going to do this again.

But you're more sure about certain things like what you want or don't want your story or your project to be or to do or to signal. And so you can sort of get more to the core of things when you start having a discussion with the distributor. And the thing as well is: PAOLA: Yes.

But you're more sure about certain things like what you want or don't want your story or your project to be or to do or to signal. And so you can sort of get more to the core of things when you start having a discussion with the distributor. And the thing as well is: JOHANNA: For your next project as well?

But you're more sure about certain things like what you want or don't want your story or your project to be or to do or to signal. And so you can sort of get more to the core of things when you start having a discussion with the distributor. And the thing as well is: PAOLA: Yes.

But you're more sure about certain things like what you want or don't want your story or your project to be or to do or to signal. And so you can sort of get more to the core of things when you start having a discussion with the distributor. And the thing as well is: JOHANNA: So essentially you're kind of saying that this is the work you would have done anyway over time? But it just became, it's almost like working together, creates this opportunity to, I guess, check that it's all coherent, that it's your… that it's the same plan all the way through.

But you're more sure about certain things like what you want or don't want your story or your project to be or to do or to signal. And so you can sort of get more to the core of things when you start having a discussion with the distributor. And the thing as well is: PAOLA: Yeah, that's right. But I guess we had more thoughts, we had more developing. The strategy was way more developed. If it was done over time I was, I was maybe going with the flow and seeing the opportunities without planning the opportunities.

But you're more sure about certain things like what you want or don't want your story or your project to be or to do or to signal. And so you can sort of get more to the core of things when you start having a discussion with the distributor. And the thing as well is: JOHANNA: It would have been reactive.

But you're more sure about certain things like what you want or don't want your story or your project to be or to do or to signal. And so you can sort of get more to the core of things when you start having a discussion with the distributor. And the thing as well is: PAOLA: Yes.

But you're more sure about certain things like what you want or don't want your story or your project to be or to do or to signal. And so you can sort of get more to the core of things when you start having a discussion with the distributor. And the thing as well is: JOHANNA: Yeah. Valeria, would you like to add something to this? How does it sound to you? Does it sound like a good process?

But you're more sure about certain things like what you want or don't want your story or your project to be or to do or to signal. And so you can sort of get more to the core of things when you start having a discussion with the distributor. And the thing as well is: VALERIA: Absolutely. And I mean the whole idea, also by making the book, was to say: okay, let's take a snapshot of where we are with this now. And then to make it freely available for people to build on it and expand it. So that it was never like something that is ‘this is how it is’. No, this is just a starting point and then take it and run with it. So that was the point and I know that others are doing their own workshops now. Some of our alumni have created their own workshops and other alumni are teaching new workshops. And so it's really lovely that it becomes this thing that gets a life of its own. And certain people use it in one way and others use it in other ways and it's meant to be a tool and it would, yeah, it's just very gratifying to watch. And at the same time that it's still something we need to highlight, even if you said you started talking about audiences 10 years ago, but it's still something we need to talk about. And I think what audience design does as a tool for the core team is also that it tries to identify connections between you and your story, and the wider context of the story and that wider context expanding to the audience and to the world that it will take place in.

But you're more sure about certain things like what you want or don't want your story or your project to be or to do or to signal. And so you can sort of get more to the core of things when you start having a discussion with the distributor. And the thing as well is: So, and I think, I think we are in a time right now where we need connections, there's so much separation and trying to, you know, tear us apart from each other.

But you're more sure about certain things like what you want or don't want your story or your project to be or to do or to signal. And so you can sort of get more to the core of things when you start having a discussion with the distributor. And the thing as well is: And so I think, actually, there can also be something gratifying to try and look for connections and to find out how am I connected to this and how does that connect with what I would like to achieve with it out in the world.

But you're more sure about certain things like what you want or don't want your story or your project to be or to do or to signal. And so you can sort of get more to the core of things when you start having a discussion with the distributor. And the thing as well is: And I think sustainability, again, is something like… none of us - I mean, okay, a few rich people can maybe leave the planet in their rockets, but they can't live on mars yet, so we are still all sort of connected on this planet.

But you're more sure about certain things like what you want or don't want your story or your project to be or to do or to signal. And so you can sort of get more to the core of things when you start having a discussion with the distributor. And the thing as well is: JOHANNA: I think that's beautiful and I think, and I mean, yes, like there's this wider sustainability issue, but also on a very practical level, this is about making individual projects artistically and financially sustainable at the same time. And I think, one of my big takeaways from what I've heard you both say, is that on one hand audience design strategy is a really good toolkit for taking traditional, high quality, sort of arthouse film making that's going to have relatively traditional releases probably, and do its festival around and do all of that path that we know so well and to do that efficiently and to help it. You know, to help it get made and to help it find its audiences.

But you're more sure about certain things like what you want or don't want your story or your project to be or to do or to signal. And so you can sort of get more to the core of things when you start having a discussion with the distributor. And the thing as well is: But the exact same toolkit is also useful for creating films and film content that may not be as traditional in format. But might still be just as high in quality of course.

But you're more sure about certain things like what you want or don't want your story or your project to be or to do or to signal. And so you can sort of get more to the core of things when you start having a discussion with the distributor. And the thing as well is: And to release it in very unconventional ways and we are all only now like in the old fashioned quote unquote “old fashioned film industry”, we are only now learning about all of these other ways of funding and reaching audiences and so on.

But you're more sure about certain things like what you want or don't want your story or your project to be or to do or to signal. And so you can sort of get more to the core of things when you start having a discussion with the distributor. And the thing as well is: But it doesn't maybe matter that we don't… I mean, there's so many new platforms and opportunities happening all the time that we don't know, we need to learn about that. But to be able to do anything with that we still need to have that audience design work in place first, it feels like.

But you're more sure about certain things like what you want or don't want your story or your project to be or to do or to signal. And so you can sort of get more to the core of things when you start having a discussion with the distributor. And the thing as well is: So it's both a way of sustaining the traditional industry and being part of this new revolution, which is quite strange. But it makes it even feel like, I don't know, like even more necessary.

(VALERIA: Yes.) Does this make sense to you? Or am I just rambling?

(VALERIA: VALERIA: No, it makes very sense. I just have a very quick thought here which is that there is so much coming out about artificial intelligence and data, you know, data about the audience, data about this, that and the other. And I think it's important. I mean audience design is not a sexy sell, necessarily out there with the data, but it's so important that we have the people with us.

(VALERIA: PAOLA: What I think maybe to add: I think that it's also what I like the most about the process that is only brought to us that I didn't know at all. So I learned the process by doing it.

(VALERIA: It's like a methodology. You know, it's like a method how to work because otherwise I wouldn't know how to approach this topic with the writers and directors.

(VALERIA: So this gave me really a tool that I can use and apply on other projects. So probably I won't do as good as Isona that she mediates very well the process, but then I can improve project by project and I think, yeah, it's a great tool.

(VALERIA: JOHANNA: In no time you’re gonna be one of those people that other producers locally come to and are like: ‘Ah, can you teach us how to do this thing?’ and so on. So yeah, I think we're running out of time, but I would ask both of you to give some beginner's advice for people who’ve been listening to this episode now and felt ‘whoa, this makes a world of sense, what do I do next’? What should they do next? Paola, what’s your advice?

(VALERIA: PAOLA: Well, I guess, just to add something: I’m working and most of us probably that are listening are working with Arthouse author films. There are films that are tailor made. It’s not like fitting a package. Films that need time, they need process, they need people.

(VALERIA: And sometimes I feel that the marketing is more and more fast and in quickly. Things happen too quickly. Like you get selected in the festival then you have to run to do the marketing to have to run to do the press and then it's already the commercial release and in theatres, then you follow two VOD. And then you're done. So you barely have time to think… and it's over.

(VALERIA: So my reflection on this process is that doing this strategy before it gives you time. And it's crucial for films like we're making, it's not like a… The film doesn't fit in a box. So if you don't give time to them, they get lost in the process. So I guess my reflection on this for people that are starting is to actually try to give time to this process. Try to think about it, download the book from Torino Film Lab, from Valeria.

(VALERIA: JOHANNA: Yes, download the book!

(VALERIA: PAOLA: Totally. Think about this process. Research, talk to people, talk to other producers, and see how people are doing and try to get informed and give time.

(VALERIA: JOHANNA: That's great. Yeah. The book is called Audience Design – An Introduction. You can find it through google if you just write that and ‘Torino’ in the in the field, but we'll link to it in the show notes.

(VALERIA: What about you Valeria? Final words?

(VALERIA: VALERIA: Yeah, I'm very happy about what Paola has said and I think it's like: Everyone's guessing and we've always been guessing and then marketing people tell you that they know and we have this and that data, but in the end everyone is guessing. And I think what audience design does is that; it empowers the film team to be part of making better guessing and to have an idea about the outcomes and to be proactive. And I think that's really valuable and I think you can see it as an investment rather than a burden because it is just a fun tool as well.

And I think we do need to consider the cycle that we exist in which is between, you know, the money, the people that give us money, they always talk about the audiences, and for us, it becomes this abstract thing. So I think also the first thing that anyone could do listening to this is just ask themselves: what does audience quote unquote actually mean to me? Because I'm also an audience. I'm a filmmaker, but I'm also an audience. But what does that even mean for me?

And I think we do need to consider the cycle that we exist in which is between, you know, the money, the people that give us money, they always talk about the audiences, and for us, it becomes this abstract thing. So I think also the first thing that anyone could do listening to this is just ask themselves: And then yeah, it's not some strange thing. It's just sort of try to brainstorm and look at your… it's tools that help you look at your script and your story from different angles and that can never harm.

And I think we do need to consider the cycle that we exist in which is between, you know, the money, the people that give us money, they always talk about the audiences, and for us, it becomes this abstract thing. So I think also the first thing that anyone could do listening to this is just ask themselves: JOHANNA: I love it. We're ending here, but you just sort of opened this whole can of worms in my brain where I'm like: what does it mean to me? Like, oh but I'm an audience. I'm many audiences. Oh, oh yeah, a lot of workshops are going to come out of this podcast, I can feel that very clearly.

And I think we do need to consider the cycle that we exist in which is between, you know, the money, the people that give us money, they always talk about the audiences, and for us, it becomes this abstract thing. So I think also the first thing that anyone could do listening to this is just ask themselves: VALERIA: Exactly. But I think also if you make a film now for a streamer or something, you think, oh, the streamer will take care of it, but like, you can drown in a streamer if they don't push your film into certain, who’s stream do they push your film into at the streamers and maybe the people you really hoped would see your film, they won't just never be found.

And I think we do need to consider the cycle that we exist in which is between, you know, the money, the people that give us money, they always talk about the audiences, and for us, it becomes this abstract thing. So I think also the first thing that anyone could do listening to this is just ask themselves: So, you know, at least you could have maybe reached some of those people during the production and the development and so they might discover it at the streamer because they know to search for it because that's the problem if it doesn't come into my, you know, what they choose for me to see then how can I find it if I don't know to look for it?

And I think we do need to consider the cycle that we exist in which is between, you know, the money, the people that give us money, they always talk about the audiences, and for us, it becomes this abstract thing. So I think also the first thing that anyone could do listening to this is just ask themselves: JOHANNA: You're so right. Thank you ever so much to both of you for joining us today, Paola Wink and Valeria Richter. Thank you so much.

And I think we do need to consider the cycle that we exist in which is between, you know, the money, the people that give us money, they always talk about the audiences, and for us, it becomes this abstract thing. So I think also the first thing that anyone could do listening to this is just ask themselves: VALERIA: Thank you.

And I think we do need to consider the cycle that we exist in which is between, you know, the money, the people that give us money, they always talk about the audiences, and for us, it becomes this abstract thing. So I think also the first thing that anyone could do listening to this is just ask themselves: PAOLA: Thank you.

And I think we do need to consider the cycle that we exist in which is between, you know, the money, the people that give us money, they always talk about the audiences, and for us, it becomes this abstract thing. So I think also the first thing that anyone could do listening to this is just ask themselves: JOHANNA: Now I'd like to invite back Isona Admetlla Font who's been listening to this conversation. Isona, what are your first thoughts?

And I think we do need to consider the cycle that we exist in which is between, you know, the money, the people that give us money, they always talk about the audiences, and for us, it becomes this abstract thing. So I think also the first thing that anyone could do listening to this is just ask themselves: ISONA: Well, my brain goes now at high speed because of the many ideas and examples we have.

And I think we do need to consider the cycle that we exist in which is between, you know, the money, the people that give us money, they always talk about the audiences, and for us, it becomes this abstract thing. So I think also the first thing that anyone could do listening to this is just ask themselves: JOHANNA: Same. [laughs] Yeah. So I mean, what would you… did something strike you? I mean since you also work with this, did something strike you as particularly important? What would you like for all of our listeners to take with them?

And I think we do need to consider the cycle that we exist in which is between, you know, the money, the people that give us money, they always talk about the audiences, and for us, it becomes this abstract thing. So I think also the first thing that anyone could do listening to this is just ask themselves: ISONA: All what was said was really familiar to me because I've been dealing with these topics for the last few years. But I mean timing is crucial. I won't say more about that because Valeria and Paola already talked about that.

And I think we do need to consider the cycle that we exist in which is between, you know, the money, the people that give us money, they always talk about the audiences, and for us, it becomes this abstract thing. So I think also the first thing that anyone could do listening to this is just ask themselves: For me, it's important to remark, this is a very useful and neutral tool, that allows this active listening of the story, this active understanding of the story that allows to contextualize the visibility of the film on the on the long term. And also I think it's a big contribution for our mind shaping.

And I think we do need to consider the cycle that we exist in which is between, you know, the money, the people that give us money, they always talk about the audiences, and for us, it becomes this abstract thing. So I think also the first thing that anyone could do listening to this is just ask themselves: So what Valeria was talking about revolution, I feel it like this because in the moment that producers, but not only producers, also directors, also scriptwriters, interiorise this idea of thinking on audience as a parallel process of the development. Then the change is going to happen because of course they are going to anticipate they are going to win time and this time will be an example of the quality of the improvement of the quality of this work. That normally it's done in really in weeks or in months in the last part, when the, they reach at that point, they are also tired. The levels of energy are very low. And this allows also to involve the audiences in the development process story wise or…

And I think we do need to consider the cycle that we exist in which is between, you know, the money, the people that give us money, they always talk about the audiences, and for us, it becomes this abstract thing. So I think also the first thing that anyone could do listening to this is just ask themselves: JOHANNA: This is so, yeah, important. I just realized that, I mean, now that you say that yes, this idea that, and that’s what Paola was describing also so vividly: just taking the time, being given permission in this case by an external process, but still to give oneself permission to take time to do a lot of this work up front. Is going to be such a relief when the part happens when you're running very fast towards, you know, closer to the release. So that's fantastic. And of course, as you say, including audiences in the creative process. But this is very scary for some creatives. We're going to have to make a separate episode about that.

And I think we do need to consider the cycle that we exist in which is between, you know, the money, the people that give us money, they always talk about the audiences, and for us, it becomes this abstract thing. So I think also the first thing that anyone could do listening to this is just ask themselves: ISONA: Of course, there are always people who resist, but there are always people who welcome these new tools or this new working processes.

And I think we do need to consider the cycle that we exist in which is between, you know, the money, the people that give us money, they always talk about the audiences, and for us, it becomes this abstract thing. So I think also the first thing that anyone could do listening to this is just ask themselves: JOHANNA: And I guess if it's the right audience again, like if it's your audience then working with them will be liberating. And if it's some other audience then it will be a nightmare. Right? So then we're back to the basics here.

And I think we do need to consider the cycle that we exist in which is between, you know, the money, the people that give us money, they always talk about the audiences, and for us, it becomes this abstract thing. So I think also the first thing that anyone could do listening to this is just ask themselves: Just very, very briefly, you all at the World Cinema Fund are restarting your distribution funding program next year. And as I understand it, the purpose is to support the release and the visibility of films from your focus regions, their visibility in Europe and also elsewhere.

And I think we do need to consider the cycle that we exist in which is between, you know, the money, the people that give us money, they always talk about the audiences, and for us, it becomes this abstract thing. So I think also the first thing that anyone could do listening to this is just ask themselves: How will audience design or audience development be integrated into this distribution funding?

And I think we do need to consider the cycle that we exist in which is between, you know, the money, the people that give us money, they always talk about the audiences, and for us, it becomes this abstract thing. So I think also the first thing that anyone could do listening to this is just ask themselves: ISONA: This was also very important for us and it was actually the result of conversation we had with distributors or, in world sales working with films from these regions.

And I think we do need to consider the cycle that we exist in which is between, you know, the money, the people that give us money, they always talk about the audiences, and for us, it becomes this abstract thing. So I think also the first thing that anyone could do listening to this is just ask themselves: We dedicated the last World Cinema Fund Day available in Youtube just to discuss these matters.

And I think we do need to consider the cycle that we exist in which is between, you know, the money, the people that give us money, they always talk about the audiences, and for us, it becomes this abstract thing. So I think also the first thing that anyone could do listening to this is just ask themselves: And after this conversation, we thought, okay, we have to relaunch the distribution fund because it's important just to give financing something concrete, soft money. But also accompanied by, uh, the possibility to work together between, world sales and the distributors of the different territories. To understand which… to see if there are similarities in the strategy, to share ways of working and it's going to be like this, we are going to finance the release of films from these regions. The applicant will be the world sales having-owning the rights for all territories.

And I think we do need to consider the cycle that we exist in which is between, you know, the money, the people that give us money, they always talk about the audiences, and for us, it becomes this abstract thing. So I think also the first thing that anyone could do listening to this is just ask themselves: And they will apply for a slate of countries, European and Non-European for the release of the film.

And I think we do need to consider the cycle that we exist in which is between, you know, the money, the people that give us money, they always talk about the audiences, and for us, it becomes this abstract thing. So I think also the first thing that anyone could do listening to this is just ask themselves: And during this process we will give time to make consultancies all together with people from the World Cinema Fund, from this sociological approach, but also from people from the market. So we can facilitate this conversation this quality time among them. And I think it's going to be a win-win situation because I'm aware and I'm sure that everyone is going to learn by everyone. The European distributors are going to learn from the distributors from Thailand or from Argentina or from Uganda, for example. And I think…

And I think we do need to consider the cycle that we exist in which is between, you know, the money, the people that give us money, they always talk about the audiences, and for us, it becomes this abstract thing. So I think also the first thing that anyone could do listening to this is just ask themselves: JOHANNA: That sounds fantastic.

And I think we do need to consider the cycle that we exist in which is between, you know, the money, the people that give us money, they always talk about the audiences, and for us, it becomes this abstract thing. So I think also the first thing that anyone could do listening to this is just ask themselves: VALERIA: …it can be enrichment.

And I think we do need to consider the cycle that we exist in which is between, you know, the money, the people that give us money, they always talk about the audiences, and for us, it becomes this abstract thing. So I think also the first thing that anyone could do listening to this is just ask themselves: JOHANNA: Yeah, this is really promising and so interesting. We're going to link of course again in the show notes to World Cinema Fund, where people can find more information. But I can see, I can imagine that there are listeners who are like: ‘oh I have a project that is suitable’. So that's great. Thank you so much, Isona, for taking this time.

And I think we do need to consider the cycle that we exist in which is between, you know, the money, the people that give us money, they always talk about the audiences, and for us, it becomes this abstract thing. So I think also the first thing that anyone could do listening to this is just ask themselves: ISONA: It was a great pleasure actually to be part of this Industry Insights and looking at the future of the industry also through this small contribution.

And I think we do need to consider the cycle that we exist in which is between, you know, the money, the people that give us money, they always talk about the audiences, and for us, it becomes this abstract thing. So I think also the first thing that anyone could do listening to this is just ask themselves: JOHANNA: Thank you.

And I think we do need to consider the cycle that we exist in which is between, you know, the money, the people that give us money, they always talk about the audiences, and for us, it becomes this abstract thing. So I think also the first thing that anyone could do listening to this is just ask themselves: That is all from us today. Industry Insights is produced by the Berlinales European Film Market in cooperation with Goethe Institut and co-funded by Creative Europe MEDIA.

And I think we do need to consider the cycle that we exist in which is between, you know, the money, the people that give us money, they always talk about the audiences, and for us, it becomes this abstract thing. So I think also the first thing that anyone could do listening to this is just ask themselves: Today’s episode was developed in partnership with World Cinema Fund. If you like what you hear, do share an episode with a friend or give us a review on your podcasting platform. It really helps with visibility. We’ll be back in your feed in no time.